[FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes - Electron Symmetry

Mon Apr 30 07:34:22 EDT 2007

There's some humor in this of course... black market money does at least
travel in real suite cases, and black market electrons do look quite
alike on the common carrier, but electrons all have lawyers to solve
that sort of thing don't they???
______

The dilemma that conservation (by one group) actually stimulates waste
(by another group) is the way I like to frame the core problem,   I have
just never understood why people advocate personal restraint in resource
use, like water, as a response to overwhelming societal waste of the
same resource.   Sure, it's hard to pull together any whole system
problem statement or model for response, but just ignoring the
difference seems to be most everyone's favorite solution.

______

The global solution is to have the full cost of demand reflected in
supply... and not surprisingly, that requires some systems thinking we
haven't done yet.

Phil Henshaw                       ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave 
NY NY 10040                       
tel: 212-795-4844                 
e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>     

-----Original Message-----
From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
Behalf Of Robert Howard
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 4:56 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes - Electron
Symmetry

Here are some problems with carbon offsets I never hear in debates:

o        Electrons cross both state and country borders. There’s a whole
“futures” industry on buying electricity for speculative market demand.
For example, California in
<http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=3062&sequence=0> 2000.

o        All electrons look the same. It’s impossible to look at an
electron on the grid and say, hey, that electron came from a coal fired
plant in Russia and that one came from solar cells in Tucson. We have
the same problem with shady black markets that move tons of cash. At
least cash comes in suitcases owned by people and moves far slower than
the speed of light. And, since the grid uses alternating current,
electrons really only move about most 3000 miles before they make a 180
turn round trip back to where they started from. It’s the
electromagnetic field that crosses borders.

If we raise the price of “our” electricity through carbon offsets, then
up goes the demand of some other defecting country’s coal-produced force
field. They’d make much more off the market differential than any CO2
subsidy they’d get after the administration took its share. This
recursively works for all products that depend on electricity, such as
aluminum cans, airplanes, and vacations. Right now, the US can produce
petroleum-driven electricity far cleaner, cheaper and efficiently than
any third-world country. If the goal is “clean”, wouldn’t we rather get
our electricity from us than them?

Robert Howard

Phoenix, Arizona

-----Original Message-----
From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
Behalf Of Phil Henshaw
Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:54 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes

Or somewhat equivalently, getting us to pay carbon taxes on what we

consume...  To do that we'd need some way guess the carbon content (and

other earth insults) for products the manufacturer didn't provide

verifiable data for... and just as necessary, some believable plan for

using the money collected.  *But* that too would still provide only

temporary relief!!  The co2/$ ratio for total economic product (economic

efficiency) can only be reduced toward a positive limit and not toward

zero (real 2nd law).

Phil Henshaw                       ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

680 Ft. Washington Ave 

NY NY 10040                       

tel: 212-795-4844                 

e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          

explorations: www.synapse9.com    

> -----Original Message-----

> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com 

> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Robert Howard

> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 11:23 PM

> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes

> 

> 

> Now, if we can just get those Chinese to pay carbon taxes, we 

> might be able to compete. :-)

> 

> Robert Howard

> Phoenix, Arizona

> 

>  

> -----Original Message-----

> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com 

> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus G. Daniels

> Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 2:03 PM

> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bigger plans, bigger little mistakes

> 

> phil henshaw wrote:

> > The consensus response to global warming relies on reducing the

> > impacts of economic growth by improving the efficiency of economic 

> > growth!

> So we need a lot more clean power, and we need it fast.   

> Time to spend 

> some money on figuring out how to do it!

> Without efficiency gains, it's estimated 10 TW are needed globally by 

> 2025. [1] 

> The ITER/DEMO fusion reactor only promises net 1.5 GW by 2045 

> [2], and 

> the largest hydroelectric facilities (Three Gorges Dam in 

> China) are at 

> about 22 GW [3].   There's not enough high-grade silicon for 

> dozens of 

> square miles of conventional photovoltaic solar [4]. Meanwhile, China 

> builds a new coal fired planed every week [5] and apparently can keep 

> doing that for 100 years [6].  

> 

> Seems to me any cost imbalance of solar, etc. is easily fixable by 

> taxing the hell out of CO2 energy emissions while subsidizing the 

> development of new solar, fusion, carbon sequestration 

> technology (etc). 

> 

> [1] http://t8web.lanl.gov/people/rajan/Gupta_energy_for_all_2007.pdf

> [2]  http://fire.pppl.gov/isfnt7_maisonnier.pdf

> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Gorges_Dam

> [4] http://www.ft.com/cms/s/e50784ea-78cb-11db-8743-0000779e2340.html

> [5] http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1223/p01s04-sten.html

> [6] 

> http://www.technologyreview.com/printer_friend>

ly_article.aspx?id=17963

> 

> 

> 

> 

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> 

> 

> ============================================================

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

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> 

> 

============================================================

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