[FRIAM] Why "true" random?

[Phil Henshaw]

Not sure really what the inputs always used, but I think these Self-org
& Self-adapt algorithms the SASO engineers were playing with didn't
always use random generators to produce the systemic effects they were
getting.   Obviously all input effects all output in some sort of way,
but it was the outcomes that would come from the whole gamete of
unspecified inputs that seemed to be the 'phase space profile' they were
most interested in.   
 
Many of the papers were on how the inputs could seriously 'misbehave'
and still not screw up the control schemes, often discussed in terms of
'malicious agent' concepts, of which the real net has plenty real
examples!     I also found them very receptive to considering not only
what a malicious person would think of doing to defeat someone else's
operating plan, but also the 'malicious creativity' of natural system
emergence as a focus of design contingencies.
 
 

Phil Henshaw                       ¸¸¸¸.·´ ¯ `·.¸¸¸¸
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave 
NY NY 10040                       
tel: 212-795-4844                 
e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>     

-----Original Message-----
From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On
Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 1:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group;
plissaman at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Why "true" random?


Simulations of stochastic processes also require good RN generators,
especially for simulations of large systems with (I hate to use this
word) emergent behavioral properties.  A bad RN generator will introduce
emergent behavior that will be "flavored" by a bad random sequences. 


-- 
Doug Roberts, RTI International
droberts at rti.org
doug at parrot-farm.net
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell 



On 7/20/07, Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au> wrote: 

Cryptographic applications require true randomness. If your cipher
used on a pseudo-random number generator, then a cracker discovering
your algorithm and key has broken your code.

I also have a hunch that genuine randomness is needed for open-ended 
evolutionary systems. Here, the evol algorithm is in the position of
the code cracker, and once the code is cracked, the evol algorithm
stops. I had a workshop paper on this in 2004, which has some problems
with it. The concept is controversial, to say the least. 

Cheers

On Sat, Jul 21, 2007 at 10:24:42AM -0600, Peter Lissaman wrote:
> Why is it important (except intellectually) to have "true"
randomness???  I very well remember the early, good old, bad old, days
of Aerospace, in the 50's, when we were really doing practical
earthshattering things -- like going to the moon -- sans computers!!
The RAND corporation, for whom I consulted, published a typed book (size
of a Manhattan telephone directory) of "random" numbers  for engineering
application.  Much entertainment was occasioned when, about three months
later, they distributed a list of "typos" to their original list of
random numbers.  Today I use homemade random numbers alla time for real
problems, specifically the actual response of real flight vehicles in
real atmospheric turbulence.  Flight tests support  analysis, in the
sense that what we predict is not obviously incorrect.  We have never
found it necessary to utilize any more "perfectly random" "random"
sequences! 
>
>
> Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures
>
> Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for.
>
> 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505
> TEL: (505) 983-7728 FAX: (505) 983-1694 
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Mathematics
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                         hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
<http://www.hpcoders.com.au> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College 
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20070722/bef1457b/attachment.html