[FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

[Steven A Smith]

On 8/12/17 9:49 AM, ┣glen┫ wrote:
> This paragraph (for whatever reason) makes progress toward my counter-argument AGAINST both Monod-via-Grant and Wagner-via-Jenny.  While it may be true that mutation is necessary for innovation, it's insufficient to claim that innovation comes only through mutation.  Imagine two point mutations on different genes, in different individuals, neither of which (for now) produce a phenotype change (ala "neutral networks").  Then those individuals go on to reproduce for a few generations, passing along their respective mutations, never seeing a phenotypic change in their lineages.  But them the two lineages mingle to produce an offspring with both mutations, where the 2 mutations together produce a phenotypic change.
>
> Can we truly say that the crossover had nothing to do with the "innovation" ... that it only preserved the innovation and the mutation caused it?  A neutral mutation can't be considered an "innovation", right?
Hmmm... I THINK what you are describing is a LATENT expression of a 
mutation?  The fact that the mutation in each genome was "neutral" until 
it mixed or encountered the other, doesn't deny the mutation(s) nor does 
it negate the idea that it's expression and (recursive propogation 
through natural selection) preserved the innovation implied by the 
convolved pair of mutations?

I think a similar, higher frequency example might include a single 
mutation which when mixed with some genomes is "neutral" or benign but 
when mixed with a particularly different one has selective (positive or 
negative) value?   There may be something in there in the whole 
Malaria/SickleCell duality for example?   Or maybe I'm mixing apples and 
pears.

- Steve
>
>
> On 08/11/2017 09:05 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>> Yes, a "mutation" to the genome is a change in one or more letters of the code.   A "mutation" in the metabolic processes implied by said genetic sequence (a changed protein, a modified level of production of an unmodified protein or set of same, etc.) and ultimately in the mature phenotype (if the precursors to this are viable enough for a mature specimen to arrive?) and beyond that the larger social unit (herd/pack/tribe) that might benefit or suffer from the behaviour of the individual experiencing the mutation. Add individuals with a mutation in their bone-production that causes extremely large cross-section bones and thick crania into the Vikings and you get (what has been hypothesized to be) Berserker warriors who drop into a blind rage when their blood pressure rises in response to threat.  As long as they are pointing *toward* the enemy when that happens, it is (maybe) highly functional for the group to have you around?
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