[FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

[Steven A Smith]

your point about "point mutations" and non-connected spaces (not 
connected by point mutations anyway) is well taken and is what I think 
your last message that I was calling "latent" (expression) is about.

 From my daughter's sage anecdotal claims about Cancer,  it seems that 
something like 7 independent cellular reproduction mechanisms have to 
fail or be jiggered for cancer to emerge in healthy cells.   I don't 
know if that literally means 7 independent mutations must occur 
simultaneously or if more likely 7 have to "accumulate", which seems 
more likely, and follows (I think) your example.   In the light of this 
discussion, I should probably ask her for a more thorough description of 
what she meant by all of that.

In the socio/political/religious/economic realm it seems that multiple 
simultaneous mutations are more obvious to observe.   I think we see 
humans mis-copy their memetic code (misinterpret their holy scriptures, 
or their parents or masters teachings, etc.) very often and sometimes in 
several dimensions at once. Perhaps the "robustness" of the underlying 
unit (a human being) allows for such wild mutations (highly antisocial 
behaviour by most measures) in a single copy, is what allows for what 
seems like some fairly fast memetic evolution at the social level?

i'm probably reaching here, but in this petri dish that is the USA with 
Trump or the first world with Trump, et al, or even the globally 
connected (bits, atoms, virus particles, memes, oh my!) first, second 
and third world there is likely to be some relatively unprecedented 
mutations recognized and even selected for.  Some could say that Donald 
Trump represents a half-dozen (or more) mutations in the 
socio/economic/political code and yet HE WAS SELECTED FOR and is almost 
surely malignant and seems to be metastasizing (other populist whitelash 
fascist movements around the first world).  The question in this 
metaphor might be whether the body (humankind) has the ability to fight 
back against this? It fits my Candide/Pollyanna idea that times such as 
these are good times to focus significant resources on simply "tending 
your own garden".    The world will have a better chance of fighting off 
this malignancy if it maintains it's overall health (social, economic, 
spiritual) otherwise.   We can't let this malignancy weaken our immune 
system any more than it already has.

buh,

  - Steve


On 8/12/17 10:14 AM, ┣glen┫ wrote:
> Exactly.  And even though we're conflating the model of evolution with the real thing, I find it difficult to believe the "space" operated on by evolution is entirely convex or even connected.  So, (point) mutation alone may *never* reach some regions, regardless of infinite individuals, infinite generations, or infinite space and time.
>
> On 08/12/2017 09:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> "Can we truly say that the crossover had nothing to do with the "innovation" ... that it only preserved the innovation and the mutation caused it?  A neutral mutation can't be considered an "innovation", right?"
>>
>> A function related by rotation might be a candidate for crossover.
>>
>> f(x,y,z,...) -> good
>> f(y,z,x,...) -> good
>> f(z,x,y,...) -> good
>> f(x,z,y,...) -> bad
>>
>> Going through the combinations just by using mutation takes forever.  But splicing at different points would help.   One could imagine for motor functions these symmetry or shift detectors could be important.   (Here it is just 1 dimensional.)