[FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate

[gⅼеɳ]

Well, Dave promised to give us a gist of Wagner.  And Grant has chimed in regarding the stochasticity of crossover, which provoked an inadequate response from Nick, if I remember correctly.  Since you're actively reading Wagner now, Nick, perhaps you could give us a summary of what he might have meant by Jenny's quote?  Repeated here for convenience:

On 8/9/17 8:56 AM, Jenny Quillien wrote:
>
> An excellent foray into such a topic is Arrival of the Fittest: how nature innovates by Andreas Wagner.
>
> From the Preface:  the power of natural selection is beyond dispute, but this power has limits. Natural selection can preserve innovations, but it cannot create them. And calling the change that creates them random is just another way of admitting our ignorance about it. Nature's any innovations- some uncannily perfect - call for natural principles that accelerate life's ability to innovate, its innovability.
>




On 08/22/2017 08:10 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> I have been trying to get somebody to tussle with me over this claim since it was first made. 
> I think it’s nonsense, but I am not sure.
>
> *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Monday, August 21, 2017 8:11 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] random v stochastic v indeterminate
> 
>  
> 
> Sorry to pull at a still thread, but I find this claim fascinating.
> "Natural selection can /preserve/ innovations, but it cannot create them."
> 
> Would we say the same of artificial selection? I'm pretty sure we would normally claim that artificial selection has lead to all sorts of innovations. Maybe I'm thinking of "innovations" more broadly than is intended?!? Aren't the baring and tail-wagging, multi-colored, short-snouted, cuddly foxes an example of innovation? (For those who don't know, it takes a pretty short number of generations to turn wild foxes into reasonable approximations of domestic dogs, and all you have to do is select against aggression towards humans.)
> 
> I know what the quote is trying to get at, but I'm not sure it holds up in the wider context of things-that-cause biological innovation.

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gⅼеɳ