[FRIAM] Naïve physics question

Wed Feb 15 11:18:01 EST 2017

Robert, thanks for the answer. I think that the question for me boiled down
to "is light a form of energy"? Of course, the naive physicist in me should
have realized that of course it does, otherwise solar panels couldn't work.
Re: conservation, I was partly asking the question from a different
perspective: at times, I need to heat small spaces (like under cabinets) in
order to keep them dry. Incandescent bulbs are nearly impossible to get
here, plus they get really hot right at the bulb, thus presenting more of a
fire hazard. So, as long as I keep the cabinets closed, the CF bulbs should
work because the interior surfaces should absorb the light energy and be
converted to heat.

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 3:53 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nick,
>
> Over the last 2 or 3 years I have replaced most of our incandescent light
> bulbs with equivalent (light output) LED bulbs.  Our electric bill has gone
> down about 20% summer and winter.
>
> When I worked in the Robotics Institute I was leader of a project to put
> sensors all over a fluorescent lamp factory to increase yield.  That is, to
> reduce the number of defective bulbs (out of millions).  The Westinghouse
> engineers told us that certain large office buildings were optimized for
> minimum energy use for lighting and heat in a method that involved keeping
> the lights on all night.  This, however, caused a public relations problem
> in that people who saw them lit up complained about their wasting energy.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Feb 15, 2017 1:37 AM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> All—
>>
>>
>>
>> Can I piggy back on to Gary’s question with one of my own.  Much more
>> naïve.  Even tho I am an ardent conservationist, I believe that claims for
>> energy saving from light bulbs that don’t spill heat only approach truth in
>> the warmest parts of our country.  Where yearly annual temperature average
>> is less than human comfort, the cost from heat loss from incandescent bulbs
>> is compensated by a diminishment in the cost of heating by other means.
>> This works particularly well with a reading lamp, which is warming you
>> while it lights you.  Now in summer, the loss of heat from bulbs is
>> actually a very bad thing because it has to be compensated for with
>> airconditioning.  But summers in most of the country are way shorter than
>> winters.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am sure I am going to get some sort of a lecture on the second law,
>> here.  Spilled heat from inefficiently deployed light sources is STILL more
>> expensive than heat directly extracted from gas or oil.  Not sure how to
>> think about that.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
>> J. Cordingley
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:11 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Naïve physics question
>>
>>
>>
>> Seems like from a thermodynamics question you can first think of having
>> two identical systems with identical energy inputs. Unless one of the
>> systems is capable of storing energy in some form differently from the
>> other the equilibrium temperatures should be the same.
>>
>> Now CFBs emit more of the their input energy as light which since the
>> containers are transparent (presumably to the same light that's emitted,
>> visible, UV, infrared) it will escape more easily. Incandescents generate a
>> lot of heat for the same energy input which may not escape as easily as the
>> light energy. It will depend on the thermal conductivity of the container's
>> materials etc. If the CFB were 100% efficient all it's energy will leave
>> immediately in a container that is 100 % transparent to its 'light' and
>> show no temperature increase. If the incandescent's heat is transmitted as
>> infrared energy at 100% efficiency along with any light then its
>> temperature will show no increase either.  So the answer may have more to
>> do with the properties of the containers than the properties of the lights.
>> Practically, I'd expect A to warm up more than B because B's light energy
>> will escape more easily with materials we are familiar with.
>>
>> If both containers are opaque to all light (UV, visible and IR) and have
>> the same thermal conductivity properties we are back to the first paragraph.
>>
>> 2c
>>
>> Robert C
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/14/17 8:01 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>>
>> Since there are some non-naïve, i.e. professional physicists, as well as
>> just gererally smart people in FRIAM, I pose the following fun question.
>> Given: two transparent, sealed containers filled with air - one contains an
>> incandescent light bulb A that consumes 100 watts of energy; the other
>> container contains a fluorescent light bulb B that also *consumes* 100
>> watts of energy. Since B is of a more efficient design, it will produce
>> more light than A. Assuming the same color temperature light is produced by
>> A and B, and ignoring any feedback effects of rising temperatures inside
>> the respective containers, will the temperatures inside the containers
>> reach the same temperature? Naïve physicist G (me) thinks that since more
>> light is escaping from the container containing B, that its temperature
>> will rise less. G also thinks that if the containers are opaque, that the
>> temperatures will rise by the same amount. But G is besieged with doubts.
>> Please help G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Cirrillian
>>
>> Web Design & Development
>>
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>> http://cirrillian.com
>>
>> 281-989-6272 <(281)%20989-6272> (cell)
>>
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>>
>>
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>
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