[FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?
Grant Holland
grant.holland.sf at gmail.com
Thu Jan 12 19:40:07 EST 2017
Eric,
You make a good point about your concerns being orthogonal to mine.
To my point, though... one of the things that Trump /is/ doing to
exacerbate my concern is to nominate folks (e.g. the senator from
Alabama to AG) who have /vowed/ to promote further class
marginalization, and have demonstrated that such is their propensity and
commitment - by, for example, supporting the KKK.
Grant
On 1/12/17 12:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
> Grant, et al.,
> I fully understand concern for the effect that electing Trump might
> have on the attitudes of the larger population. I have relatives who
> are, in fact, moving from rural areas, where discrimination was
> already noticeable, to Canada, in anticipation of increased
> discrimination (inspired by what, to them, Trump's victory
> represents). However, I see that as conceptually distinct from concern
> over what Trump himself might do. They are moving due to concerns
> about their local neighbors, not about what might happen in the White
> House or in Trump Towers, and not because they are afraid of Trump
> being kept in proximity to the football.
>
> As for the VP and the cabinet deciding to try to ouster him, that
> seems unlikely, unless he becomes considerably more erratic. The "out"
> provided by the 25th amendment is clearly intended for someone who
> becomes unstable in office. The law requires people the president put
> in place to declare that they no longer have faith in him, which
> implies a fundamental change in the character of the person whose
> agenda they agreed to serve.
>
> The amendment is not intended to remove a narcissistic person, who was
> such when elected, and is still such in office. If it becomes clear
> that he is fundamentally unfit for office, they will turn against him,
> but "unfit" by their standards will mean that he consistently disrupts
> the ability of the party to get things done, not merely that he gives
> erratic press conferences and tweets in the middle of the night. As
> far as general decorum, recall that "whip it out like LBJ" is a
> perfectly valid expression. As far as mental incompetence, recall that
> Regan was pretty far gone by the end of his time, and the people
> around him kept things running fairly well. So long as the party can
> keep things running fairly well despite Trump's flaws, there won't be
> a sufficient number of people willing to sign.
>
> P.S. Out of curiosity, does anyone else know someone actually moving
> as a result of the election?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----------
> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
> Supervisory Survey Statistician
> U.S. Marine Corps
>
> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 11:57 AM, Grant Holland
> <grant.holland.sf at gmail.com <mailto:grant.holland.sf at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> It looks to me like you are missing what people like myself and
> Jochen are very afraid of - the extreme marginalization of certain
> classes of people versus other classes of people. And when I say
> "extreme", I mean extreme.
>
> I grew up in the American South in the 1950s where lynchings of a
> certain class of people still occurred. That culture strictly
> forbade the pursuit of social and economic opportunity for that
> class, at the threat of beatings and death. And it was justified
> via an appeal to Christianity! For example, my mother (I'm a white
> guy) took over my Sunday school class in order to teach us (11
> year old kids) that racism is Biblically justified. (She failed of
> course in her attempt at demonstrating that.)
>
> So I know by experience that the danger of that kind of
> marginalization is real. (The propensity for a return to that
> world is alive and kicking even today in the deep South.) It is
> palpable and I recognize it in today's cultural and political
> manifestations.
>
> I know that many of my friends who voted for Trump either think
> that I am simply a sore Hillary lover (I'm not really a fan of
> hers), or that I'm senselessly paranoid. But I think my fears are
> real and even probable. I'm way beyond mere disagreement. (That's
> where I was in 2000 when W won.)
>
> And I do not think that Jochen's fears are unjustified. Listen to
> him. You don't have to agree, but listen. He comes from a place
> that is fresh with the experience, and the consequences, of the
> real life manifestations of these phenomena. It happened, and
> Jochen knows what the tracks of that animal look like.
>
> Thanks for listening to me!
> Grant
>
>
> On 1/12/17 6:07 AM, Eric Charles wrote:
>> The comparison of Meryl Streep to Klemperer or von Galen seems
>> more baffling to me than the original conversation. As some on
>> social media have been pointing out, she stood in a room full of
>> like minded people, and spoke their collective mind, with no risk
>> to her career or her person. She didn't say anything not being
>> chanted from the rooftops by hundreds of thousands of other
>> people, and said publically, by prominent celebrities and members
>> of the press every day.
>>
>> Are we really worried Meryl will be disappeared in the coming
>> weeks, and gassed? Are we worried she will be hit with false
>> charges, arrested without trial, and have her properties become
>> forfeit to the state? Are we even worried she might be
>> blacklisted and never act again? And even if she did, are we
>> worried she won't be able to get by in this world and support her
>> family with the $75 million she already has? Those are honest
>> questions.
>>
>> Maybe I'm very confused about what "courageous" means. I would
>> consider the average BLM marcher, or women's march participant,
>> more courageous. They could be attacked by police or counter
>> protesters, they could be arrested, they could be fired from
>> their jobs, they could become ostracized by their communities,
>> etc. Heck, Jill Stein got herself arrested at Standing Rock and
>> hardly anyone seemed to notice. I'm not saying Meryl didn't give
>> a good speech, or that it was unimportant, but I honestly wonder
>> what risk we really think she faces as a result of that speech,
>> which leads us to dub her act so courageous, and to compare it to
>> the actions of the other individuals mentioned.
>>
>>
>> -----------
>> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
>> Supervisory Survey Statistician
>> U.S. Marine Corps
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 2:24 AM, Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net
>> <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Meryl Streep reminds me of Clemens August Graf von Galen, who
>> was one of the few bishops that had the courage to criticize
>> the Nazi regime. He was a bishop in my hometown Münster near
>> the Dutch border. In his sermons he criticized that the Nazis
>> were killing innocent disabled people. The program was named
>> T4. The Nazis let him live because he was too popular among
>> the people.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemens_August_Graf_von_Galen>
>>
>> Many other priests and bishops were imprisoned by the Gestapo
>> (the secret state police) in concentration camps and died.
>> In St. Hedwig's cathedral in Berlin many of those are
>> mentioned on memorial plagues. While it may be futile to
>> resist, those who have the courage to do it are not forgotten.
>>
>> It can also help to document the things that are unfolding,
>> the violations of human rights, the corruption, and the
>> injustice. In Dresden there was a Jewish professor Victor
>> Klemperer who covered the actions of the Nazi regime in his
>> diaries and journals. He was an important witness of all the
>> injustice that happened.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Klemperer>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: glen ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com
>> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>
>> Date: 1/12/17 02:07 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is the new president mentally ill?
>>
>>
>> But the question is what actions are guided by remote
>> diagnosis? I admit that I hope high visibility shaming like
>> that from Streep, when added to the rest of the stress he
>> will be / has been under, will make him go away. But it's
>> not likely for the same reasons Steve cites that blame and
>> stigma won't really work on him.
>>
>> I suppose if we could really confirm that he's a particular
>> type of narcissist, then we could build models of what he may
>> or may not do and choose actions based on their expected
>> efficacy. But because, almost by definition, everyone who
>> willingly runs for President is a narcissist of some sort or
>> other and to differing extent, that diagnosis isn't helpful.
>>
>> Listening to the confirmation hearings is more helpful, I
>> think. Take note of all the (many) issues where Trump and
>> his appointees express diametrically opposite positions.
>> Focus on those fissures. At best, his administration will
>> shatter. At worst, the more distance you can put between the
>> incompetent Cheeto and the competent people surrounding him,
>> the more likely we'll end up with a Bush2 or a
>> late-stage-Reagan ... maybe not good, but not catastrophic.
>>
>> On 01/11/2017 03:34 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>> > Eric I believe you are wrong if you believe you can have a
>> narcissistic person on your site. A narcissist cares only for
>> himself. The policy of Trump boils down to "I'm great and
>> you're not unless you are like me, myself and I, you loser".
>> There is no way how he can make the country great again. As
>> Paul Krugman said America will turn into some form of
>> authoritarianism, into a Trumpistan nightmare at best.
>> > Mr. Trump does not only have a brand, he *is* a brand, a
>> brand that says "I'm great". If you stay in this Trump hotel
>> you are great. If you play on this Trump golf course you are
>> great, too. But it is just a facade. It is based on lies, and
>> there is nothing behind the shiny facade except emptiness.
>> Therefore he seems to hit back immediately if someone damages
>> his image and his brand, because he ceases to exist if his
>> image is destroyed. He and his brand have become
>> undistinguishable.
>> > Marketing is no way to make America great again, Google has
>> already an OS for ads, and the American corporations excel in
>> marketing, especially the fast food chains. What will he do,
>> build a Trump hotel in every city, a Trump golf course in
>> every national park? This would be a total Trumpistan
>> nightmare. Better than the nuclear apocalypse, but who would
>> want such a future...
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☣ glen
>>
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