[FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Tue Jun 20 23:16:57 EDT 2017

Frank, 

The Metaphor group.  I thought you were going to go along?

To you point about uniqueness.  It’s odd.  Misery does love company, I suppose. But,  I mean, really?  The only reason not to be bummed by not being unique, is if the banality of one’s pain suggests a solution.  But that was ruled out by Glen’s example, wasn’t it?  

I dunno.  I never quite know what Glen is on about.  But I tended to read his response in terms of his cancer.  He is saying, “I am comforted by knowing that I am not the only man with cancer.”  If I were dying of cancer, would I be comforted to know that a million other people are dying of cancer?  

I am just not sure. 

nIck 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:05 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Part of the pain comes from feeling unique in one's defect.

What happened Monday?

Frank

Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918

On Jun 20, 2017 8:01 PM, "Nick Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net <mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net> > wrote:

Frank, 

I think Glen would reply that minor has all sorts of association that provide some predictability. 

I can’t fight every battle in every email

Yes.  And immediately I have felt really stupid for feeling that.  How on earth could another’s pain meliorate mine! 

What was Monday like?  

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:45 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Nick,

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

What about, “every planet in the Solar System that is closer to the Sun than Jupiter is a minor planet.”

Why didn’t you challenge Glen’s use of the phrase “human mind”?

Haven’t you ever felt, “Wow, if there’s a word for what I am it must not be too bad”?

Frank

Frank C. Wimberly

140 Calle Ojo Feliz

Santa Fe, NM 87505

 <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> wimberly3 at gmail.com      <mailto:wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu> wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu

Phone:  (505) 995-8715 <tel:(505)%20995-8715>       Cell:  (505) 670-9918 <tel:(505)%20670-9918> 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 7:15 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Thanks, Glen, 

Kind of you to respond.  

I will do a bit of larding below. 

Nick 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the role of metaphor in scientific thought

Y'all say:

In  <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf> http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20170619/f46244d3/attachment-0001.pdf:

> 

> 

> If our analysis is correct, then the distinction between explanation 

> and description takes on an entirely new importance in science.

> ...

> The young man thinks, "This is not a unique problem, I am just a 

> bachelor," and goes about his business with a happier heart.

> However, such relief is the philosophical equivalent of a placebo, and 

> it may be short- lived. Knowing that he is a bachelor tells the young 

> man nothing about his predicament that he did not already know. He 

> knew that he was unmarried, and that is all that it means to say one is a bachelor. Moreover, he has learned nothing that might help him find a solution to the problem.

> 

> 

But, it seems to me that "This is not a unique problem" is THE fundamental scientific point.  It may be the only thing about science that anyone should care about.  You even lectured me way back to be careful about conflating idiographic vs. NOM-othetic information (emphasis is purposeful).  Circularity (of description or explanation) is irrelevant.  What matters is the reproducibility of experiments.  It doesn't matter what you think happens between the laser and the film.  What matters is that it does the same thing every time you run the experiment and which changes to the experiment cause which changes to the outcome.

[NST==>Wow, Glen.  You are the only person I ever met who successfully squeezed positive heuristic out of the bachelor case.  Well done!<==nst] 

You may notice this is the same sort of criticism I applied to your paper about filter explanations.  Even _if_ a particular bit of reasoning is circular, as long as it's not trivially circular ("flat", "thin", or "shallow"), there is information to be gained from examining that _circle_, that loop.  So, the loop of unmarried <=> bachelor has information in it, even if the only information is (as in your example), the guy learns that because the condition has another name, perhaps there are other ways of thinking about it ... other _circles_ to use.

[NST==>I assume you would agree that “unmarried because unmarried” is perniciously circular.  Right?  Just checking. <==nst] 

Now, if instead of the vagaries of psychology and natural language, you were talking in math or logic, even thick loops are more easily reduced to their thin ("normalized", "canonical") form.  So, we can conclude, the more formal the language used to express the circle, the more obvious the circle.  But you're not talking in or about math or logic.  You're talking about psychology, human thought, etc. in this paper.  And therefore my response to you is:

[NST==>I suppose that one could argue that any time one writes a sentence of the form, A is a B, one has launched into metaphor. <==nst] 

Are YOU relying too heavily on the (silly) metaphor of computer to brain?  Software to thought? 

[NST==>I hope not.  I HATE that metaphor. <==nst] 

 >8^D

I'm only on page 7.  So, maybe you eventually address this point. 

[NST==>You are one of the few people on the planet to reach page 7.  How could I cavil!<==nst] 

 Sorry if that's the case.

[NST==>I will be interested to see if the next few pages help in any way. 

Thanks again, glen<==nst] 

On 06/18/2017 09:46 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> FWLIW, The attached PDF is from a book manuscript,  pieces of which have been kicking around for more than 40 years, which Eric Charles has been trying unsuccessfully to get me to pull together into something publishable. If any of you is curious, the text will help you to understand the things I said in the recent complexity discussion and their relation to the “levels” discussion and the metaphor discussion that follows.  The specific discussion on metaphor is late in the pdf, so that if that is what interests you, you can safely skip to the first section on models.  For me, a model is just a scientific metaphor. Full stop.

> 

>  

> 

> If anybody had comments to share, we, of course, would be deeply grateful.

--

☣ glen

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