[FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?

[Steven A Smith]

Nick -
>
> S. G.,
>
> So, what constitutes a system is arbitrary?  In the mind of the beholder?
>
> I remember when we used to argue about this at The Complex.
>
> I always wanted to argue that a system is in some sense 
> “self-bounding”.  It consists of a group of entities that are 
> interacting more intimately with one another than they are with 
> entities outside the system.
>
I think you answered your own question here?   The beholder (modeler?) 
decides what dimensions of the system are important/relevant and then 
chooses some coupling threshold or principle to separate the system from 
it's suprasystem.  So not "arbitrary" but definitely "conditional"?  In 
my LANL day job (decision support systems), the standard answer to every 
question from a client (usually DC types) was "it depends", and a great 
deal of our task was to help them decide what constraints and 
assumptions they were willing/able to make on a "simple" question to get 
down to a meaningfully answerable question where enough conditions were 
made explicit.

It is the nature of reductionism to find and/or create subsystems of 
subsystems to study in isolation, or with imaginary steady-state 
inputs/boundary conditions.   Most models of refrigerators ignore things 
like the quality of the waveform of the AC source driving the motor that 
drives the compressor, and even the motor's characteristics itself... 
the compressor is likely assumed to fire up and wind down 
instantaneously (On/Off), etc.  The external thermal conditions 
surrounding the refrigerator, similarly... at most probably an external 
temperature which varies through the day in a consistent manner with no 
thought or concern as to whether spikes in temperature come from weather 
patterns or sunspot activity or someone leaving the AC running all day.

I'll bet YOUR AC is running all day!
  - Steve
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
> <http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>
> *From:*Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen 
> Guerin
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 28, 2017 10:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> <friam at redfish.com>
> *Cc:* Stephen Guerin <stephen.guerin at simtable.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems?
>
> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 7:38 AM, gepr <gepropella at gmail.com 
> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I've struggled to understand your point here. Are you saying that,
>     eg, a phase diagram of a device like a refrigerator, with ice in
>     the freezer part, jello in the fridge part, and coolant in the
>     compressor:
>
>     1. violates a definition of 'space',
>
> No. I am using the term "phase space" as one concept - I'm not 
> separating the terms. In a phase space diagram, "space" is defined by 
> the dimensions of the control (independent) variables. In the 
> ferromagnet, space is temperature. In a water phase diagram you could 
> have a 2 dimensional space of pressure and volume. or a one 
> dimensional space by holding one of the control parameters constant.
>
>     2. cannot exist,
>
> No I'm not saying that. You can have a phase space for the whole 
> refrigerator system. You would need to define the system and the 
> associated control and order parameters. Given that systems are 
> abstractions - there would many you can choose from. Some would be 
> complex systems (eg energy and mass circulation with respect to 
> compressor/fan strength:
>
> Inline image 1
>
> or vibrational modes vs fan speed, etc. other system descriptions 
> might not be complex if I would model it as a linear relation (eg. 
> duration of fan activation and my electric bill) .
>
>     3. reduces to a common, atomic, phase space, or
>
> Yes, you can treat the whole refrigerator as a single system.
>
> You can also treat ice, jello and the compressor systems as separate 
> systems. They may be open, closed or isolated with respect to energy 
> and mass flows depending on the description.
>
> Jello alone could have a few complex systems descriptions:
>
> Critical Elasticity of Gelatin Gel
> http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1143/JJAP.28.1639
>
> Effect of Shear Flow on the Phase Behavior of an Aqueous 
> Gelatin−Dextran Emulsion
>
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bm0300352?journalCode=bomaf6
>
> Transition to total internal reflection for light paths in gelatin:
>
> https://www.exploratorium.edu/snacks/laser-jello
>
> When I gave examples like this in the past and talked about their 
> phase spaces and critical regimes, you said " If these systems merely 
> contain subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you 
> listed are not complex systems." I was disagreeing with you on the use 
> of systems in the context of phase space diagrams. The critical regime 
> is not a subsystem in my definitions. The system description and model 
> is not changing in regions of the phase space diagram. There is still 
> only one system. Only the control parameter(s) and the resulting 
> change of the order parameter(s). I would agree that the control 
> parameter could be driven by a coupling to an external gradient or 
> from it's embedding in a larger system. Though that doesn't mean we 
> don't have a complex system.
>
> On May 26, 2017 5:39:40 PM PDT, Stephen Guerin 
> <stephen.guerin at simtable.com <mailto:stephen.guerin at simtable.com>> wrote:
>
>     >
>     >We disagree on the use of systems and subsystems in the context of
>     >phase
>     >space then. To me, there is one system and that system has a phase
>     >space -
>     >There are not multiple subsystems in the phase space.
>
>     --
>     ⛧glen⛧
>
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