[FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”

Sun Oct 15 10:03:32 EDT 2017

And that's the God's Honest Truth :-)  Sorry, couldn't resist.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2017 at 8:53 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Nick, David: you are both correct.
>
> Frank
>
> Frank Wimberly
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Oct 15, 2017 12:44 AM, "Prof David West" <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> Hi Nick,I write from Vienna. I will be back in Utah next week and at
> FRIAM for a couple of weeks starting in mid-December. You can apply cold
> compresses then, or just toss me in a snow bank.
>
> The "edge" that you do not recognize is present in your response. First,
> you propose a probabilistic/statistical "method" for discovery of the
> 'certainty' of a property of the signal. Why? What makes that method
> privileged? I.e. what is it about Probability that merits using it as a
> Philosopher's Stone? More egregious is the use of the term "rational
> man" — this is what I meant about allowing only some individuals at the
> conversational table.
>
> see you in December
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 14, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > Somebody has obviously riled you up, wherever you have gone to.  Please
> > come back so I can administer cold compresses.
> >
> > I can recognize in what you write below the vague outlines of things I
> > have said about Peirce, but your representation of me has a kind of edge
> > I don't think I ever would have given it.  Try this:  Imagine that you
> > have a fancy antenna and that it is picking up a signal from outer space.
> >  Imagine you are interested in the frequency of the signal.  Now, I say,
> > the signal can either be random or systematic.  Let's say that the last
> > ten readings on the signal give you a reading of 256hz +/- 1 hz.  Now,
> > it's entirely possible that such a sample of measurements could be
> > produced by a random signal.    But now let us double the number of
> > readings, and let us also notice that the variation of the measurements
> > has also diminished by the square root of two.  Now double again, and
> > diminish the variation once again by root 2.    And so on.  While we both
> > would have to recognize that there is no certainty that the signal is not
> > random, still the probabliliy keeps increasing that such a sample is
> > drawn from a population of measurements with a mean of 256hz.  It's that
> > way with truth.  It's quite possible that our experience is random, and
> > no amount of consistency  can ever convince a rational man that the
> > randomness of any particular chain of experiences is not random.
> > However, as experience increases in consistency, the same rational man
> > will be more likely to bet that that chain of experiences will be
> > confirmed in the very long run of human experiences.  On Peirce,s
> > account, that is what it means to say that something "is the truth"  It
> > is to bet that this string of experiences that we are now in the midst of
> > will be confirmed in the very long run of human experience.
> >
> > Notice that I never asserted, for a certainty, that there is anything at
> > all that is True.  I only gave a Pragmatic[ist] definition of what truth
> > would be if there ever were any.
> >
> > Come back.  We miss you.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> > Clark University
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David
> > West
> > Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:02 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Truth: “Hunh! What is it good for? Absolutely Nothing!”
> >
> > Two caveats: first, this might better be a private communication with
> > Nick since he is the one with the temerity to first (at least in the past
> > few weeks) use the word 'Truth', although it has been implicit in a lot
> > of recent threads; and second, the following contains a lot of assertions
> > and assertions are, at minimum,  ‘Truthy’ in nature, but I am making no
> > such claim, as will be explained later.
> >
> > There can be no Truth.
> >        Nothing IS except in context and therefore only local – situated
> > - ‘truths’ are possible.
> >        Until the Universe achieves  ‘heat death’ (at which time there
> > might be a single Truth), everything changes and therefore only ephemeral
> > ‘truths’ are possible.
> >        All is Maya (illusion) and all Truth and all truths are equally
> > illusory.
> >
> > There is no / are no means for discovering Truth even if It existed.
> >        To go all postmodern on you: what means/method died and ceded
> > privilege and sole possession of the ‘Royal Road’ to math, logic,
> > scientific method, rhetoric, and “reason?”
> >
> > There is no / are no means for expressing, and therefore communicating or
> > sharing, Truth; were It to exist.
> >        Trivially, this is merely an expression of the first line of the
> > Tao de Ching: “Tao Tao not Tao.”
> >        More importantly it is a generalization of what Peter Naur said
> > about software and software development. Specifically that a program was
> > the expression of a consensual theory share among those that developed
> > it. That “theory” exists almost entirely in the minds of the humans
> > engaged in building the theory; and, that theory cannot be reduced to
> > documentation and therefore cannot be transmitted/communicated to other
> > minds. (Actually, transmission would be possible extant telepathy and
> > simultaneously, empathy.)
> >
> > As I have understood Nick’s interpretation of Pierce I find him to be an
> > intellectual terrorist and his approach useful only for establishing
> > orthodoxy and dogma. A prime reason for believing this is that the
> > ‘conversation’ espoused by Pierce (and Nick) cannot be global – every
> > living person at once – and therefore can only result in a consensus of
> > the few that that is to be imposed on all. A second reason for this
> > belief is that the only ones allowed at the conversational table are
> > those proficient in and willing to abide by specific rules of discussion.
> > This is application of my postmodern stance expressed above.
> >
> > A corollary of my antipathy towards Pierce, a favorite quote from Hesse:
> > “Those who are too lazy and comfortable to think for themselves and be
> > their own judges; obey the laws. Other’s sense their own laws within
> > them.”  Hesse was speaking of ethics but I would extend his notion to
> > epistemology and metaphysics.
> >
> > None of the preceding is Truth, merely my truth. Accepting same
> > essentially makes me a sociopath; but, I hope, an amiable one.
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20171015/699ae608/attachment.html>