[FRIAM] Opportunity to join a discussion about Charles Sanders Peirce

Fri Oct 27 19:51:14 EDT 2017

Nick,

Thanks for the offer; I do have a copy of Jacques Monod’s *Chance and
Necessity*. As I remember, it was not easy to find at the time as a new
copy.

Your request:

 ... if you have a text of your presentation, I would love to read it.

What I do still have is the text I prepared for the *Santa Fe Philosophical
Society* as "homework" for my 20-minute presentation.  So, if one reads my
20-page "Does the universe have a purpose for us?" before the presentation,
they would be better prepared for the "lecture" and ensuing discussion.  So
it is a primer of sorts.  And, it serves as a partial look at how, with the
rise of Darwinism, teleonomic explanations historically and "successfully"
pushed aside teleological explanations for the *apparent *goal
directiveness of biological evolution.  But I see that your 1987 paper "The
Misappropriation of Teleonomy" would see this as no explanation at all. I
shall read that paper to see why you say that, though, you are also saying
that Jaques Monad "beat you to the punch-line."  Need to re-read that
one. 😊  More to come ...

I also had a two-page handout, summarizing the points in the paper.  Also,
the title question was posed to the group (~ 20 persons) both before and
after the session.  The final majority consensus was "no" but there were
some minds changed as I recall.  I wonder if I had changed the question to
"Does life have a purpose for us?" would the consensus been different.
Friedrich Nietzsche clearly lamented "no," but warned us that we had better
figure out a rational one we can all agree on pretty soon.  His warning
seems to ask, "If we are so smart, why haven't we come up with a
*rational *purpose
(goal) for humanity?"  Humans are the only teleological *agents *in the
universe that we know about. And, we are the only organisms that *can *imbue
rational purpose for ourselves.

Here's a sidebar ramble motivated by today's FRIAM session ... giving it
more "thought":

Given what I heard you aks the FRIAM group this morning, "Is natural
selection a *fair *process--for it must be so for it to work the way it
does (careful to not say 'progress' here)?'," you might find Lee Smolin's
("testable") Cosmological Natural Selection hypothesis intriguing in the
sense that your question may be applied cosmologically. Smolin's model
refute's the (strong and weak) Anthropic Principle of Cosmology which is
arguably teleological.  So, I wonder, if your idea of "fairness" would need
to satisfy an anti-teleology filter ... no goal. That does seem reasonable,
but does it work?

When existing life becomes environmentally stressed (the stimulus to change
or die), evolution builds on what it already has through a (non-random)
re-expression of the "parts" in a way that makes the organism more fit
(e.g., the grasshopper to locust phenomenon).  This is also how the Hox
gene circuit seems to work (and it makes the probability math work out).
However, like others expressed, I do not see the word "fair" being the *right
*selection among possible *fit *words ... pun not really intended, but it's
curious in that, not *any *word will do.

Can a new organism be re-made from its initial state to fit within the
moving niche (as I think Kim would put it)?  Maybe the selection process *is
*like information transmission, but through a gene expression process where
an irrelevant message becomes relevant (functional) in the new context.
With moving niches, time can be the enemy, which is why the process cannot
be random (fair?) because the probability math does not work out, and which
is why bacteria populations do so well as moving into new niches.  Bacteria
use short reproduction cycles (change the organism); humans use technology
(change the environment, which is not natural selection, but changing our
tolerance to niche movements), as was pointed out today.

Then again, this may all be a nonsensical (fair?) grope to an explanation
(a solution) that will satisfy (fit) ... 🤔 (again, no pun intended). 😊

Anyway.  Let me know where you would like for me to send the discussion
paper and I will.  It *could *serve as the basis for a new thread, but it
might also be way too much material for such a use.

 BTW, from what I learned from Frank this morning about the group dynamics
is that the group interaction works more coherently--like it
did today--when seeded with an interesting question or proposition. Then,
it seems, all of the seated minds work simultaneously on the same "thread"
so to speak. This is very similar to the underlying process of a Socrates
Cafe. I think your question(s) served this purpose. 😎

Cheers,

Robert

On Thu, Oct 26, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Robert,
>
>
>
> Friam starts a little earlier than 9.30; closer to 9.10.  I like to come
> early so I can get a seat in the middle (hearing problems), but that might
> not be a factor for you, so come any time.  The group is very eclectic –
> sometimes we do old fart stuff, and sometimes we do really interesting
> stuff.  We have several mathematicians, and when they get going, I just
> have to Sit In Wonder.
>
> I note your interest in teleonomy.  Through a weird coincidence, I ran
> into a blog  run by some middle eastern folks who made me read Jacques
> Monod’s CHANCE AND NECESSITY.
> <https://www.amazon.com/Chance-Necessity-Natural-Philosophy-Biology/dp/0394718259/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1509073028&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=Chance+and+necesssity>
> (I have a PDF, if you would like to read it.)  I was astounded because
> “Teleonomy” is the key term of Monod’s  exposition, and I had written some
> papers on it in the eighties (e.g. The Misappropriation of Teleonomy
> <https://www.researchgate.net/publication/302329059_The_Misappropriation_of_Teleonomy>)
> without ever finding his book.  Anyway, if you have a text of your
> presentation, I would love to read it.
>
>
>
> I have been trying to write something on Peirce for months now but need a
> collaborator to keep me honest.  Perhaps the group has one.
>
>
>
> Thanks again for getting in touch.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
> Wall
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 26, 2017 7:00 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Opportunity to join a discussion about Charles
> Sanders Peirce
>
>
>
> Hi Nick,
>
>
>
> No worries.  I am happy to tell you et al. a bit more about the *Santa Fe
> Philosophical Society* that wouldn't be apparent from the website. I have
> been a member of the *SFPS* for about four years and joined about a year
> after we moved to Santa Fe from Austin, Texas, where I retired from Hewlett
> Packard as a performance-research scientist | engineer. We most often meet
> at a particular member's comfortable home, Mim's, every second Sunday of
> the month for a discussion on some philosophical issue or on the works of
> some philosopher that has or will be researched by a volunteer and who will
> provide a 30 to 40-minute introduction to the group followed by a moderated
> discussion.  I have given two or three presentations to the group on topics
> like Martin Heidegger's 1954 essay "The Question Concerning Technology" and
> teleonomy versus teleology, to give you some quick examples. The group is
> older, very friendly, and philosophically curious.  Many are ex-pats from
> LANL, but not all ... like me.
>
>
>
> If I can get a number of those among you that are interested, I can just
> add you as my guest to the sign-up list.  Then, if you like what you see
> and hear, you can join ... but you do not have to be a member to come to
> these meetings.  The member headcount determines the dues that are paid
> annually to the Meetup organization that maintains the web resources.
> Members, or anyone, can donate a few dollars to a can, but it doesn't take
> a lot of money to run this Meetup group.  Mim has a very large
> accommodating living room for these meetings, but we try to limit sessions
> to just 25 attendees (with shoes off at the door). Parking has never been a
> problem. My good friend Chris Goad--a theoretical mathematician Ph.D.
> graduate from Stanford, a self-admitted Platonist, and a huge proponent of
> the Computational Theory of Mind (we have argued this for nearly four years
> now)--has volunteered as the session moderator. A good guy. Coffee and tea
> are always available; some, like Chris Mechels, bring a beer. 😎  Many
> times handouts are provided, but it is best just to print off the prepared,
> linked material from the website.
>
>
>
> Often, there can be several much smaller (~4-5 persons) breakout subgroups
> that will do a deeper dive into some philosophical topic at some other
> time(s).  I have been involved in several that meet weekly at the Travel
> Bug for a few hours. The one I frequent seems to have turned toward
> discussions in neuroscience, which I think has been motivated by early
> sessions on consciousness and the Philosophy of Mind. It's all good. 😎
>
>
>
> BTW, I came across FRIAM by way of Steven Guerin, to whom I wrote years
> ago after reading a paper he wrote on complex adaptive systems, a
> percolating interest of mine.  Steven replied that *that *made six now
> who read the paper, or something like that. 😊 Even as a perhaps too
> infrequent contributor--but frequent reader--of the forum, I find the list
> has many thoughtful contributors that seem to know one another fairly well.
> And, I imagine the FRIAM at St. Johns has the same caliber of thinkers with
> a similar degree of familiarity. Anyway, I've been meaning to drop by the
> FRIAM group at least on my way to join the St. John's library, as they have
> the best philosophical library in these parts. If memory serves, you meet
> at 9:30 a.m. every Friday.
>
>
>
> For some reason, I thought you were on the east coast near Boston or
> something like that. But, yes, I would enjoy meeting you as well, having
> enjoyed your contributions to the forum, especially as you go about
> explaining Peirce. So, I have been waiting for Peirce to appear on the menu
> at the *SFPS* and it has finally arrived. William James, another
> pragmatist, about whom I am also very curious. Dewey?  Maybe, so ...
>
>
>
> Hope you can make it to the SFPS. The sessions never seem to disappoint.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:18 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
>
>
> I apologize for asking a dumb question about SF Philosophers.  I didn’t
> see the link (as a link).
>
>
>
> I will make every effort to be there.  Sunday night is my cooking night
> for the extended family, but with a little planning I should be able to
> finesse it.
>
>
>
> I always imagined that you were from some far distant place!  Like
> Australia, or something.  Have you been here the whole time?  Have you ever
> come to FRIAM?
>
>
>
> I look forward to meeting you.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert
> Wall
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:46 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Opportunity to join a discussion about Charles Sanders
> Peirce
>
>
>
> FYI.
>
>
>
> The* Santa Fe Philosophical Society* is offering a discussion session
> on Charles Sanders Peirce
> <https://www.meetup.com/SantaFe-Philosophers/events/244523385/?fromEmail=244523385&rv=ea1>
> on Sunday, November 12, 2017, 2:00 PM to 4:00 PM.
>
>
>
> Nick, if you are in town, the group would definitely benefit from your
> attendance ...
>
>
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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