[FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Thu Sep 14 15:39:07 EDT 2017

Stuff like--maybe revolution?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
wrote:

> Russ writes:
>
>
> "I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of
> Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we
> should get beyond that."
>
> Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.
>
>
> Marcus
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Russ Abbott <
> russ.abbott at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about
> it)
>
> Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote,
> but I'd like to add a brief comment.
>
> I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness
> of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events
> that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the
> very existence of the American experiment."
>
> But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes
> it out. (That was Marcus's point.)  He gives an example of Trump lying
> followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump
> supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming
> even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all
> happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when
> someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly
> what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest
> won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond
> that.)  But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another
> time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.)
> Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part
> of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the
> politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact
> that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump
> opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side
> to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There was a good TED talk
>> <https://www.ted.com/talks/caitlin_quattromani_and_lauran_arledge_how_our_friendship_survives_our_opposing_politics?rss#t-852200>
>> by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly
>> politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at
>> remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with.  However, I think
>> that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most
>> important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades
>> or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by
>> the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other
>> side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without
>> regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor
>> country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil
>> terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks
>> you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself
>> against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized
>> conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them
>> don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as
>> much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and
>> McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms
>> with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward.
>> In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving
>> for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense.
>> That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement
>> mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve
>> every problem.
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Nick writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> "Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a
>>> theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris
>>> veritas.  *
>>> It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the
>>> moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory:
>>> he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about
>>> anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to
>>> the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the
>>> social consequences of what we are saying."
>>>
>>> That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social properties
>>> of the group.   I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is some
>>> completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the
>>> diplomatic conditions in North Korea.  But I wasn't talking about speaking
>>> impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain
>>> people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to
>>> the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at
>>> all).   I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way
>>> Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or
>>> how deep the divisions go.    I think that is bad advice because it rewards
>>> the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that
>>> the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility.  So, unlike
>>> Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace.   (That's a fine thing for him to
>>> optimize for, but that's him.)   It reminds me of what Christopher
>>> Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian
>>> conservatives:  "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead to
>>> civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great pleasure
>>> to take part."
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Nick Thompson <
>>> nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
>>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do
>>> about it)
>>>
>>> Dear Marcus, Owen
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory
>>> of human nature which is summarized by the motto, *in caloris veritas.
>>> *It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of
>>> the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this
>>> theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth
>>> about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come
>>> closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness
>>> of the social consequences of what we are saying.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
>>> Daniels
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do
>>> about it)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Owen,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural
>>> third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in
>>> person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine."   Now, some people think that
>>> in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.
>>> That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings,
>>> all conflict will be resolved.  No.  I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman,
>>> and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.
>>> Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it
>>> certainly isn't informative.  It is just the application of social skill,
>>> and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in
>>> debate.  It is a weak facilitator.  The problem with the current situation
>>> is that one side is just dishonest.  In the ternary world of politics, the
>>> `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Owen Densmore <
>>> owen at backspaces.net>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
>>> *To:* Complexity Coffee Group
>>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about
>>> it)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" (Medium
>>> deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of what
>>> we've been dealing with.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-
>>> upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    -- Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
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>>
>> --
>> Russ Abbott
>> Professor, Computer Science
>> California State University, Los Angeles
>>
> --
> Russ Abbott
> Professor, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>

-- 
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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