[FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Thu Sep 14 17:27:29 EDT 2017

Merle writes:

"It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch."

Yup, Yvonne Strahovski (the evil wife -- also was on Dexter) needs her own series where she redeems herself by disappearing more bad guys.
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2431438/>

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2431438/>

Sense8<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2431438/> gets points as a metaphor for the threat of the nationalists.   Meh. That Walking Dead stuff is for the red state audience.

Marcus

________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com<mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>> wrote:
Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still is) on a very good track!"

I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with the gerrymandering.  Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it will be tough to get them out of power.  Unfortunately, technology will not solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve troglodyte courts.  It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing their best to arrange things so that they keep it.  I wish I could be more optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not.

I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states as such.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com<mailto:merlelefkoff at gmail.com>> wrote:
Stuff like--maybe revolution?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

Russ writes:

"I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that."

Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.

Marcus

________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com<mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote, but I'd like to add a brief comment.

I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the very existence of the American experiment."

But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes it out. (That was Marcus's point.)  He gives an example of Trump lying followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that.)  But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.) Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com<mailto:russ.abbott at gmail.com>> wrote:
There was a good TED talk<https://www.ted.com/talks/caitlin_quattromani_and_lauran_arledge_how_our_friendship_survives_our_opposing_politics?rss#t-852200> by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with.  However, I think that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward. In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense. That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve every problem.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:

Nick writes:

"Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas.
It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying."

That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social properties of the group.   I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the diplomatic conditions in North Korea.  But I wasn't talking about speaking impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at all).   I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or how deep the divisions go.    I think that is bad advice because it rewards the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility.  So, unlike Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace.   (That's a fine thing for him to optimize for, but that's him.)   It reminds me of what Christopher Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian conservatives:  "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great pleasure to take part."

Marcus

________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net<mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net>>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)
Dear Marcus, Owen

Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas.  It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying.

Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Owen,

On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine."   Now, some people think that in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.   That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings, all conflict will be resolved.  No.  I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman, and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.   Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it certainly isn't informative.  It is just the application of social skill, and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in debate.  It is a weak facilitator.  The problem with the current situation is that one side is just dishonest.  In the ternary world of politics, the `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.

Marcus

________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> on behalf of Owen Densmore <owen at backspaces.net<mailto:owen at backspaces.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of what we've been dealing with.

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.

   -- Owen

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Russ Abbott
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Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org<http://emergentdiplomacy.org>
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefkoff at gmail.com<mailto:merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609<tel:(303)%20859-5609>
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
--
Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org<http://emergentdiplomacy.org>
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
Saint Paul University
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

merlelefkoff at gmail.com<mailto:merlelefoff at gmail.com>
mobile:  (303) 859-5609
skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
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