[FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"

Wed Sep 20 13:09:16 EDT 2017

I find most of what Hoffman says sort of over generalized from over
simplifications.  If we perceived things solely according to their fitness,
then how do we perceive things which have multiple fitnesses, where
different aspects of fitness vary to different schedules, where
combinations of things have different fitnesses than the things met
independently, where some things imitate other things, and so on?  Perhaps
it works better if we perceive objects by physical properties and then
infer their fitness from context?

Then again, isn't fitness a bit of a magic wand to apply to these
discussions?  Yes, the fitness of an organism is sufficient if the
organism's descendants survive to reproductive age, but the steps in which
this survival rate is traced through all the intermediate stages of
causality to explain the exact mode of operation of all perceptual
mechanisms, don't his hands get tired waving around like that?

Fitness in this context reminds me of utility in economic arguments.  What
is it?  It's what is necessary to make these arguments work.

I did like the conscious agent algebra.  I was not impressed with the
discussion of "quantum systems", but that was supplied by the interviewer's
introduction.

-- rec --

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 11:58 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm disappointed. No one bothered to comment on or even notice my post on
> this subject.  Here it is again.
>
> An easy way to agree with Hoffman and not get bent out of shape is to
> acknowledge that anything we think involves something being constructed in
> our heads. That construction is an idea -- or an emotion, or whatever other
> modes of awareness we have. That seems to me to be tautological: we can
> think or feel, etc. nothing but our thoughts, feelings, etc. As I said
> that's a tautology. After all, when we see something and say, that's a dog,
> we are converting whatever raw signals we encounter into an image and a
> concept. We aren't talking about the raw signals. It's impossible for us to
> be aware of the impact of, say, every photon on our retinas. (I'm assuming
> it is impossible. Perhaps some people can do something like it.) Also, I'm
> assuming there is a world that includes photons that we encounter.
>
> So this position doesn't deny a world "out there." At the same time it
> acknowledges that as living beings we have evolved means to make something
> more useful to us than awareness of raw signals. After all, why have eyes
> if all they do is give us the equivalent of a plane of pixels. That doesn't
> tell us anything about friend/foe, nourishment/poison, etc. If our senses
> weren't hooked up to internal processes that made something of them besides
> the raw signals, evolution wouldn't have kept and perfected them.
>
> So the simple answer is that Hoffman is right that we don't see "the world
> as it is" but that doesn't mean there isn't a world as it is.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:49 PM Merle Lefkoff <merlelefkoff at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Physicists Are Philosophers, Too - Scientific American
>> <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/physicists-are-philosophers-too/>
>> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/physicists-are-
>> philosophers-too/
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 6:55 PM, Nick Thompson <
>> nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> M.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>> I am sure they were smart people, but did they know anything about the
>>> history and contemporary practice of philosophy, or were they starting from
>>> scratch.   I guess I think that it’s almost as preposterous to say that a
>>> physicist can do philosophy as to say that a philosopher can do physics.  N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Merle
>>> Lefkoff
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 19, 2017 6:15 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Definitely the latter.  They were a big help to me with my "Coexistence"
>>> modeling project.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 3:27 PM, Nick Thompson <
>>> nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In what sense philosophers?  They liked to entertain lofty thoughts?
>>> Or, they were systematic thinkers in relation to things beyond the realm of
>>> physics?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> N
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Merle
>>> Lefkoff
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 19, 2017 1:19 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick, the quantum physicists that I worked with during my four years at
>>> CNLS were very much also philosophers.  I think it kept them reasonably
>>> sane.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 9:26 PM, Nick Thompson <
>>> nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Marcus,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To be honest, I have never seen what philosophy has to do with quantum
>>> mechanics.  I agree with you that the idea of a real world outside
>>> experience is nonsense but I don’t see how QM gets you there.  Peirce held
>>> that all “objective” observation consist of guesses at what we all, the
>>> community of inquiry, will agree is real, after much discussion, in the
>>> very long run.  So it’s all experience, all the way down, except that
>>> “reality” is a sort of future experience.  No dualism allowed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
>>> Daniels
>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 18, 2017 10:40 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Experiment after experiment has shown—defying common sense—that if we
>>> assume that the particles that make up ordinary objects have an objective,
>>> observer-independent existence, we get the wrong answers. The central
>>> lesson of quantum physics is clear: There are no public objects sitting out
>>> there in some preexisting space."
>>>
>>> For some reason, many scientists seem to believe that they are
>>> independent observers and not part of the physics they measure.   If they
>>> can give that up, then things make more sense.
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
>>> wimberly3 at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Monday, September 18, 2017 7:56:16 PM
>>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] The Atlantic article on "the illusion of reality"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This resonates with various Framework discussions.  I think it's an area
>>> of interest to Nick.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-
>>> illusion-of-reality/479559/?utm_source=atlfb
>>>
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>>> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>>>
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>>
>>> Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
>>>
>>> Saint Paul University
>>>
>>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
>>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>>> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>>>
>>> twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>>> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>>>
>>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>>
>>> Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
>>>
>>> Saint Paul University
>>>
>>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
>>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>>> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>>>
>>> twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
>> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy
>> emergentdiplomacy.org
>> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>>
>> Visiting Professor in Integrative Peacebuilding
>> Saint Paul University
>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
>>
>> merlelefkoff at gmail.com <merlelefoff at gmail.com>
>> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
>> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>> twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> --
> Russ Abbott
> Professor, Computer Science
> California State University, Los Angeles
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
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