[FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Sat Oct 27 14:32:37 EDT 2018

Hi Marcus, Frank, et al,

I am a mathematician who knows category theory, which Rosen seems to have found exciting. My thinking about a machine that would learn how to reprogram itself is surely at a naive level, but it seems to me that it would feel more like a being than a machine. All I know about Genetic Programming is what I just read after Googling that term and it looks like great idea. Frank's credentials are impressive but I don't know enough to, as yet, formulate a reasonable question to him.

It looks that some very sophisticated programs can evolve and reprogram themselves which means, I think, that sequential machines can do amazing things. I guess my question would be:

Is there something that animals, or more particularly humans, can do which we can prove cannot be duplicated by a sequential machine?'

I have read Dennett's "Consciousness Explained" and Hofstadter's "I am a Strange Loop". There are parts of each book which still seem vague to me, but it seems likely that the answer to the above question is "No".  But then I would need a different approach to trying to figure out what Rosen might be driving at. (I once had s copy of Rosen's "Life Itself" but I can't find it now --so I ordered a used copy for about $9.).

On Geometric Algebra --my Googling of this term suggests that it has to do with what I would call tensors, which I saw briefly in an undergraduate Physics course, and very abstractly in a graduate Math course. I convinced myself they were about the same thing

--John

________________________________
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2018 11:11:10 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

How idoes genetic programming with automatic function definition not achieve this?

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of John Kennison <JKennison at clarku.edu>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2018 at 6:21 AM
To: "Friam at redfish. com" <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I like the idea of a non-sequential machine, or perhaps, a being, whose operation is NOT determined by knowing how its component parts function. I don’t see how to go about constructing such a thing, unless I assume that there are laws of physics which remain undiscovered. So for now, I will settle on trying to describe a ``machine’’ which is not a sequential machine. I think that Rosen is right in saying that having a parallel machine (in which various operations happen simultaneously) will not do the trick because given any parallel machine one can define a sequential machine that functions in the same way. One might make a machine in which the outputs only happen with a certain specified probability, but I don’t think that is different enough. So I rephrase the problem as describing an entity that receives inputs and produces outputs that is cannot be duplicated (or reasonably modeled) by a probabilistic sequential machine (one in which the outputs happen with a specified probability). I thought of starting with a sequential machine, which has rules for how to react to inputs when in a given state. But now let’s suppose that the rules may change. The entity is capable of learning new rules. This seems more biological –the entity can reprogram itself. But I find that naive ways of reprograming can probably be duplicated by a sequential machine. For example, if the machine reprograms when dissatisfied with previous performance, then there is a new state, of being dissatisfied, and the reprograming activity can, it seems, be re-expressed as more sophisticated rules for producing an output.

--John

________________________________

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Tom Johnson <tom at jtjohnson.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:23:01 PM
To: Friam at redfish. com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories.  Sorry.

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)                                    505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government<http://nmfog.org>
Check out It's The People's Data<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Its-The-Peoples-Data/1599854626919671>

http://www.jtjohnson.com<http://www.jtjohnson.com/>                   tom at jtjohnson.com<mailto:tom at jtjohnson.com>
============================================

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 11:45 AM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net<mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Thanks, Tom,

Still trying to figure out logistics.  I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response.  Do you have any experience with this?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Tom Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 11:14 AM
To: Friam at redfish. com <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick.

Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University

============================================
Tom Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)                                    505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government<http://nmfog.org>
Check out It's The People's Data<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Its-The-Peoples-Data/1599854626919671>

http://www.jtjohnson.com<http://www.jtjohnson.com/>                   tom at jtjohnson.com<mailto:tom at jtjohnson.com>
============================================

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:09 PM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net<mailto:nickthompson at earthlink.net>> wrote:

Hi, all,

Here is a new draft of the open letter, pared down to meet the New Mexican’s requirements.  I have a few signatories, would love some more.  I will bring the letter with me to our service on Friday.  Even if you don’t plan to sign, please feel free to point out typos and other infelicities.

Nick

To the New Mexican

We are industrial researchers and retired college professors, living in Santa Fe.  We urge all Santa Feans to vote, but particularly young voters and their parents.  Institutions of learning and their students are under stress.    Every day, we meet young people as dedicated to learning as our best research students in the 70’s and 80’s, yet are working as cashiers, ride hail drivers, waiters and waitresses.  Under present conditions, these talented young people cannot afford to go to university and, without that training, will never take up the leadership positions their talent should make possible.  The nation will need these students as our generation retires from institutes, government laboratories, colleges, and universities.  Please take time to vote and to tell your representatives to support education at every level.  The future safety and prosperity of our nation depends on it.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20181027/ad80950b/attachment.html>