[FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Thu Dec 26 20:23:08 EST 2019
He still spent more time at Bell Labs than I did.
-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly
My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
Phone (505) 670-9918
On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 6:15 PM Angel Edward <edward.angel at gmail.com> wrote:
> It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at
> UNM CS.
>
> Ed
> __________
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS
> Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home) edward.angel at gmail.com
> 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bob Ballance!!
>
> -----------------------------------
> Frank Wimberly
>
> My memoir:
> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>
> My scientific publications:
> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>
> Phone (505) 670-9918
>
> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer
>> than I did, who used to come to Friam. Then he got some kind of honorary
>> position in DC left town temporarily. He had thinning white hair and wore
>> glasses and was about my height. With that unique description someone must
>> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> Frank Wimberly
>>
>> My memoir:
>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>
>> My scientific publications:
>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>
>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well. In the belly of Net Logo, I
>>> think.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Lee???? Are you out there?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nicholas Thompson
>>>
>>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>>
>>> Clark University
>>>
>>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>>
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM
>>> *To:* friam at redfish.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank -
>>>
>>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my
>>> outbox. The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the
>>> "recipients:Friam" stream... this collection may very well also be the
>>> primary contents of many's TL;DR folder here.
>>>
>>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years
>>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus
>>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to
>>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM.
>>>
>>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who
>>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from
>>> your memoir. He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s...
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You should write a memoir.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Frank -
>>>
>>> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if
>>> only for a short while. I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some*
>>> beast in our various times.
>>>
>>> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in
>>> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other
>>> USFS families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical
>>> rings and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated
>>> (whatever that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires
>>> running from tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole... It wasn't hard to
>>> understand the idea that if voices could travel over single wires, that any
>>> one of us on a party line could pick up and hear the other's voices during
>>> a conversation or even that the volume/static on the line would abruptly
>>> change if someone picked up (say to listen in?). It made perfect sense
>>> that such resources (wires on poles) were very scarce and needed to be
>>> shared... I had heard of operator-assisted calling which made great sense
>>> (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent via the spring-loaded
>>> rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my father showed me
>>> the one in the main location at the second forest camp when I was about 5)
>>> and I remember watching/hearing a call go through it... relays opening and
>>> closing as ring pulses went through...
>>>
>>> One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was
>>> busy all the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on
>>> the switches. Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the
>>> county at the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing
>>> this was my first taste of "infrastructure". I don't know what kind of
>>> backup he had... I never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of
>>> anyone else employed... though I do know sometimes there were company
>>> trucks parked at the fenced yard next to his house... probably for new line
>>> buildout? Another father of a friend owned/operated the local "vending"
>>> routes which included soda machines, candy machines and best of all pinball
>>> machines. HIs territory must have been pretty wide because our 300 town
>>> only had one soda/candy machine at each of 2 gasoline stations and 3
>>> pinball machines at the drug/variety store. I got to see the ones in
>>> their shop behind the house under repair opened up and really got a kick
>>> out of trying to "trace the logic" of a coin-drop/lever-pull,
>>> delivery-chute... and even better, the complex logic of a pinball
>>> machine. Yet another father drove the propane delivery truck (he had a
>>> boss who drove some, but he was the main driver) and another who ran the
>>> local branch of the power - coop along with his wife. They had more
>>> trucks that came in from the next large town (60 miles and maybe 1000
>>> people?) to do major repairs/upgrades, but he was out in his truck all the
>>> time fixing/installing *something*. Several of these men ran an ad-hoc
>>> cable network in the core of the village... nothing came in by antenna and
>>> I guess they had their own up on a mountain with a rebroadcast system...
>>> the network was down as much as it was up and while *some* of the customers
>>> had to have been paying customers, it was these guys who somewho
>>> cooperatively kept it going. I *knew* that someone besides these men were
>>> *designing* and *building* the systems they maintained (thought the cable
>>> TV thing was more DIY).
>>>
>>> Many years later, we moved to a large town/small-city (2 supermarkets, a
>>> dozen motels and gas stations?) and our neighbors at the edge of town owned
>>> the local AM radio station... they solicited me to clean the station every
>>> Saturday and after a few months of that I graduated to typing up station
>>> program logs and then began to operate the station under supervision...
>>> they were largely "automated" which meant 4 big carousels with 4-track
>>> endless loop (similar to 8-track) cartidges that we would load with music,
>>> PSAs and commercials which were then "programmed" by inserting pins in
>>> different patch-panels... there were two modes... for example, the system
>>> that took over on the top of hour for the network news would inject one of
>>> a small handful of instrumental tunes that could be faded/interrupted
>>> at-will to flip over the newsfeed. The rest of the time, the system had a
>>> priority stack and the commercial/PSAs stack had priority in the sense that
>>> it wanted to play out it's queue within the allotted time (usually one
>>> hour) no matter what... while the music queue would simply play whenever
>>> one of the others were not... only rarely (due to bad planning) would a
>>> commercial or PSA go unplayed. Not every hour was different, but there
>>> were periods (8-12AM, 1-5PM, 6-10PM) that had a particular character and
>>> there was some variation within it. By the time I was 15 (Freshman in HS)
>>> the station owners saw my diligence and curiosity (the Station Engineer
>>> would take the time to explain most everything there to me in as much
>>> detail as I had time for) and offered me a nighttime live show which I ran
>>> for most of my HS years. I always had the option to fire up the automated
>>> system, as I was also trying to do my homework during that time. I went
>>> in to the station before 4PM to handle the 4-6 news programs (I can still
>>> hear Paul Harvey ringing in my ears) and then the (automated) 6-7 PM
>>> "sundown serenade" curated by the wife but executed by me (most of the
>>> time). At 7 we rolled into "the Night Show" which was conceived by the
>>> owners to be something for the "youth crowd". It was nominally a Rock show
>>> but was really Top-40 by their measure... We had the full array of classic
>>> rock vinyl in the shelves and I was allowed to use (most of) it but there
>>> was the top-40 billboard charts to be serviced which meant a lot of
>>> pop-rock and country-rock and pop-pop.
>>>
>>> Yet another exposure to the complexities of "programming" and "logic"
>>> from a somewhat different perspective. The engineer at the time had been
>>> on the predecessor to the NIF fusion project in Livermore (MFE?)
>>> (designing/building the capacitor banks) and clued me in a lot of things.
>>> He was a greasy-haired wiry little hippy that drove an old italian
>>> convertible (very finicky with dual carbs...) and had a penchant for
>>> visiting the bars/brothels in Mexico (this was a border town) and probably
>>> got rolled by someone at least once a year... and had the stories (and
>>> scuffs) to tell about it. He taught me binary logic/arithmetic and showed
>>> me how that related to the somewhat similar/different discrete/analog
>>> systems behind the carousels (all the electronics were exposed, so you
>>> could trace wires and watch relays open/close) and even taught me the
>>> basics of analog circuits including soldering, relays, power
>>> amplifiers/transmitters. Later, as I went into the all-digital world of
>>> Computer Science, It was as if I was learning about Mammals after growing
>>> up among only Marsupials. Of course automobiles had their own share of
>>> analog-discrete logic with an HV (timed) side and a 12V mostly continuous
>>> (but with switches/relays) side. This was the 70s and the autos of
>>> interest were mostly from the 50s/60s.
>>>
>>> I went to LANL in 1981 to work on the Proton Storage Ring which was in
>>> some ways the epitome of an anolog/digital hybrid systems with huge
>>> subsystems being HV and HF while others were "utility" (110/60) and yet
>>> others were TTL. The place was "in flux" all the time... with magnetic
>>> fields (intended and unintended) coming and going effecting everything.
>>> It was a quite the milieu. Moving to HPC was both a relief and a whole
>>> new world... even though I still worked with some analog systems, they
>>> were much less dangerous and much less high speed... the digital stuff was
>>> lickety-split (by those days standards) and the introduction of vector and
>>> parallel (and eventually distributed) processing was new and interesting.
>>> By the time I was mentoring others (90s), the backgrounds were almost
>>> exclusively digital and most if not all of the "kids" that came through had
>>> never even worked on their own cars, much less vending machine or automated
>>> tape carousel logic.
>>>
>>> As Y2K approached, a consultant from SAIC was working in my general
>>> area... we became friends... but his role and way of thinking was
>>> incredibly foreign to me. One of his roles (he felt like a plant from the
>>> military-industrial into the military-scientific establishment) was to
>>> consult on Y2K readiness. My system at the time had been hand-built on
>>> top of UNIX (replacing a VMS system that was falling apart every day) by a
>>> small team (3-5 of us) and while I did not know every line of code in the
>>> system (I had written a good portion of it), we had coding practices and
>>> standards and code-reviews and I was roughly 99.9% confident that we didn't
>>> have a single 2-digit date in the system, nor did we depend on any
>>> libraries or system code which did. The open-source/community nature of
>>> BSD Unix meant that everything we relied on and trusted without inspecting
>>> personally had been inspected by hundreds or thousands of others. The Y2K
>>> problem had been discussed a lot and there were plenty of procedures in
>>> place to encourage (though never ensure) that every code-team/system had
>>> expunged any possible Y2K bugs. My SAIC buddy talked in SLOC and had
>>> metrics up the wazoo about things which almost exclusively did not apply
>>> (well) to our systems as-designed and as-built. There may well have been
>>> (especially in the Business Processing side of the house) some big
>>> risk/holes, but I knew my system intimately and the other major/similar
>>> systems (slightly larger development teams with more turnover) were well in
>>> hand.
>>>
>>> We (the three major systems) also had on-call responsibility and were
>>> used to being called at 3AM if something wasn't right.... *we* had been
>>> trained by the operations staff to not leave them hanging... they could be
>>> pretty easy-going/helpful with those of us who answered our phones and were
>>> easy-going/helpful with them, but the few who thought they shouldn't have
>>> to help stand up a system they built when it fell over (or sprung a leak)
>>> at 3AM on a holiday discovered quickly that they would not be let off
>>> easier just because they were reluctant or pissy about the call. Bottom
>>> line was that we (developers) knew that our systems had to run 24/7/365 and
>>> the 00:00:01 01/01/00 was just like any other day, and if/when/as the
>>> dominoes might start to fall, it was OUR job to be right there standing
>>> back up any of OUR dominoes that might fall on their own or be knocked down
>>> by others. There was a little rivalry between systems (operations as well
>>> as development) but for the most part of someone else's system was falling
>>> down and making a mess (creating possible/implied bugs in other systems)
>>> we all pulled together pretty well. I don't know to this day if my SAIC
>>> friend understood how coordinated and intimate we all were, because he kept
>>> on predicting gloom and doom for us as the date approached. As it was,
>>> there wasn't even much scurry as the calendar/clocks cranked over Y2K, and
>>> I don't remember any acute problems. We (wanted to?) believed that the
>>> ADP side of the house had no end of problems due to their heavy dependence
>>> on commercial systems/layers/middle-ware/vendors. As I remember it, Y2K
>>> was pretty much a flop everywhere.
>>>
>>> All this in response to "IT is Not Sustainable". I would claim that
>>> virtually NOTHING we build is sustainable... or at least there is a huge
>>> spectrum. Engineering can be incredibly robust within it's design
>>> parameters, but is often incredibly fragile when confronted with a
>>> unexpected conditions... Evolved systems are also simultaneously fragile
>>> and robust. They are robust within the "basins of attraction" implied by
>>> the ecosystem they operate within but once pushed out of those robust
>>> regions they can self-destruct quickly... I've been studying (very loosely)
>>> the myriad examples of species extinction and habitat loss and cascading
>>> failures (in progress and/or impending) in our ecosystems and am appalled
>>> at how unprepared we (humans, engineers, even scientists) are to apprehend
>>> the fragile interconnectedness and "designed for near-optimal-conditions"
>>> we have set up. Not precisely a house of cards, a line of dominos, a
>>> stack of Jenga sticks, but not precisely NOT those either.
>>>
>>> My recent trip to Europe/Scandinavia opened my eyes to some things I was
>>> previously under-aware of. The evolved-engineered systems of polder and
>>> canal and dike and hydrology in the Netherlands is perhaps the most
>>> impressive. Realizing that they started significantly holding back the
>>> north sea during the "little ice age" (dikes and polders had started
>>> earlier, but this was when they really came into their own?) helps me to
>>> appreciate the difference between what they have done there over centuries
>>> vs what our own Army Corps has done in less than 100... and most to the
>>> point, the ways a whole culture can adapt to things including their own
>>> engineering given many generations, but how we "moderns" don't have time to
>>> adapt culturally to the changes. We DO adapt (the talk of telephones and
>>> the earliest examples leading up to a global wireless,
>>> multi-system-technology mesh/grid being an example), but it isn't clear to
>>> me that our adaptation is *deep* enough to be robust...
>>>
>>> Another example in less detail is what has been come to be called "the
>>> Nordic Secret" which is roughly the response of Scandinavia to the
>>> enlightenment followed by the industrial revolution and perhaps most
>>> acutely the post WWII industrial/cultural explosion in the west. In many
>>> ways they follow the rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know
>>> "a secret" about sustainability, both industrially and culturally.
>>>
>>> The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to
>>> the point... Endogenous... self-generatated... and while we may be taking
>>> down a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest tragedy
>>> seems to be set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our domisticates
>>> and the remaining large mammal species)... though that also may simply be
>>> an anthropocentric view.
>>>
>>> As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable... you name the "it" and
>>> it very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote
>>> notwithstanding)...
>>>
>>> I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an
>>> Eco-Modernist of late... not necessarily wanting to trust that we can
>>> "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our
>>> technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice
>>> (culturally)... and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using
>>> "fire to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than that
>>> which we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) corner.
>>>
>>> </ramble>
>>>
>>> - Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on
>>> its public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a
>>> year, reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP
>>> and mobile voice services.
>>>
>>> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project
>>> is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines
>>> across 50 Class 5 voice switches. "
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5
>>> switch at CenturyLink.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but I had to clarify this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frsnk
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS
>>> used in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5
>>> telephone electronic switching system developed by ...
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Frank writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> “This was the telephone network in question.“
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is
>>> still used? I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do
>>> billing for long distance telephone carriers. I was amazed by the
>>> seemingly arbitrary complexity. Complex at a policy and
>>> inter-organizational level, not just the software.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
>>> wimberly3 at gmail.com>
>>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM
>>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>> friam at redfish.com>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC. We also had code reviews
>>> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay. With a brand
>>> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS
>>> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student. This was the telephone network
>>> in question.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology.
>>> The disagreements between the software tool developers (version control,
>>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the
>>> applications, such as call processing, were epic. Recall that Bell Labs
>>> invented C and Unix. After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at
>>> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work
>>> began. I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but
>>> close to it. Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the
>>> software tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I
>>> believe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----------------------------------
>>> Frank Wimberly
>>>
>>> My memoir:
>>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly
>>>
>>> My scientific publications:
>>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
>>>
>>> Phone (505) 670-9918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz <gary at naturesvisualarts.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Spot on.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written
>>> by other people. The problem is that people are selfish. They think
>>> that their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was
>>> once that too. It's the behavior of teenagers.
>>>
>>> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" <
>>> friam-bounces at redfish.com on behalf of lists at hpcoders.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on
>>> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex
>>> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much
>>> more
>>> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code
>>> easier
>>> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out.
>>>
>>> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by
>>> a
>>> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) -
>>> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that
>>> section.
>>>
>>> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a
>>> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
>>> Principal, High Performance Coders
>>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpcoder at hpcoders.com.au
>>> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>>
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>>
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>>
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>>>
>> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20191226/53063a22/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list