[FRIAM] Few of you ...

[Prof David West]

Steve, I too would prefer the term asocial rather than anti.
However, I have, on occasion, been a 'domestic terrorist' which is
pretty anti-social.
I can really enjoy being part of a team — for a couple of decades I
played basketball 3+ hours a day, 7 days a week. I was, what they called
it at the time, a "hang round" — pre-initiate — with the Hell's Angels.
I was a youth leader in the LDS church, etc., etc. But, with the
exception of the church (wasn't my choice), I was never a "member" of
any group.
What prevents me from joining any group is the extent to which it
"codifies" itself — i.e. defines itself as a kind of set, with rigid
criteria for being a member of that set. If I accept / agree with /
behave according to only a subset of that criteria, I will not be
allowed to be a member, nor would I wish to be.
davew



On Tue, Jan 15, 2019, at 10:29 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Glen claims "antisocial" and I think Dave has mentioned his own
> "tendency to withdraw from society" (my paraphrase, I welcome
> correction or elaboration.    I hypothosize that *many* who are
> significantly engaged in online discussion/community may well fit one
> of the myriad positions on (and near?) the anti-social spectrum?> I personally prefer to consider myself to have "asocial tendencies".
> I'm not entirely uncomfortable in social groups, but I know I tend to
> prefer smaller groups or sub-groups within a larger group, to the
> extreme of engaging mostly in serial one-on-one conversations at
> dinner parties.  I tend to reserve the term "anti-social" for
> something a bit more active in the sense of not only avoiding engaging
> in social groups/activities, but being hostile (openly or not) toward
> such groups.   I can admit to being somewhat judgemental about large-
> group activities (attending pop culture events en-masse, including
> political rallies and street protests), but more in the sense of "I
> wouldn't be caught dead doing that!" rather than "anyone who
> participates in such things are mindless idiots!"   I even accept that
> under the right circumstances I have been known to participate.  I do
> attend small gathering performances/readings/events and in most cases
> find their downside more about the tedium than the actual
> content/experience itself.> My father (1927-2014) was a bit of a paradox on this topic.  He was
> born and raised amongst his hillbilly relatives.  His father (my
> grandfather (1898-1975) and grandmother(1899-1950) were the first of
> their generation to get an advanced education (MS/BS degrees vs
> typically 8th grade) and escape the day to day circumstances of their
> otherwise humble origins.   My grandmother, despite education and
> living in a small city through her adult life, never left her
> "mountain origins" while my grandfather fashioned himself much more of
> a "modern man".   My own father spent his self aware life in one of
> three uniforms, two in the service of the US Government.   The first
> was in the Boy Scouts of America for his teen years.  The Second as a
> recruit in the US Navy at the very end of WWII, not leaving dock until
> after VJ day, spending his 3 years helping to clean up after the war
> in the Pacific. The third was as an employee of the US Forest Service.
> His roots and instincts were those of a very independent person who
> felt by some measure that every man was an island, yet his practice
> was to find his place as an island as a member of an Archipelago.
> Half the allure of the Boy Scouts and of the US Forest Service was his
> draw to spend time in the wilds... the other half seems to have been
> to *also* have the sanction of the authority of a uniform and a set of
> rules.   His stint in the Navy may have been the same.> Many of his anecdotes about both the USN and USFS involved him
> recognizing/discovering/exercising  the distinction between blind
> observance of rules and the recognition and pursuit of the spirit of
> the rules, and him having ultimately prevailed over strict
> interpretations with common sense actions in the spirit when not the
> letter of the regulations.  His proudest moment may have been when his
> court martial was dismissed abruptly after being charged for
> deriliction/AWOL during the Port Chicago disaster in 1944 where 320
> Navy men were killed and a similar number were injured.  He was a
> medical aide/assistant on his ship which was docked near the disaster
> and when the injured personnel began arriving, he reported for duty
> without being called.  After several shifts of non-stop desperate work
> to do triage and save the lives (and often limbs) of those harmed, he
> returned to his berth only to be arrested for having not been
> available when they came to collect him for duty in the emergency.
> They apparently ignored or didn't believe his "alibi" and he went
> through the whole formal process of being held for a court marshal
> which fortunately was quite prompt and at least there, when he gave
> his account, the "judge" recognized his earnest honesty and apparently
> he was not the first or only one to be mis-charged/handled in this
> way.    There were at least another dozen altercations of this style
> (if not gravity) in his career in the USFS.  He seemed to trust
> implicitely that the system would ultimately "do the right thing" and
> it didn't seem to bother him much that he could-be mishandled while
> the "sheels of justice" turned. His USFS career involved a huge amount
> of time in the field (forest), even during his mid-career stint in
> middle management (District Ranger). It was as if he was
> simultaneously addicted and allergic to the basic nature of organized
> systems of authority.> In the shadow of his addiction/allergy, I avoided uniforms entirely
> excepting a few months in the BSA at his insistence.  I gave over to
> the shirt and necktie but it all felt too much like being a member of
> the "hitler youth" to me.  I was *institutionalized* at LANL for 27
> years with (too) many of the same features.  In place of a uniform, I
> had a security clearance, a Z-number and a Badge which came with their
> own egregious rule-sets and implied authority and paradoxes.  During
> that time, my best work was done as the de-facto leader of small teams
> (3-10).  Each time that de-facto leadership lead to a formal
> leadership position, it eventually went bad, requiring me to move on
> to fresh pastures. I made a couple of lame attempts at rising to
> middle management but couldn't hold a straight face during the
> interview process, knowing that I didn't respect many (if any?) of my
> would-be peers and fearing that I was about to join them by way of the
> "Peter Principle".  My 27 year career at LANL consisted of patchwork
> of jobs like this ranging from 3-7 years in duration.  I was very
> relieved the day I decided to leave LANL (2008) and shocked at how
> much MORE relieved I was the day I surrendered my clearances (2010).> Outside of my institutionalization in BS (big science), I have often
> been self-employed and entrepreneurial and generally fairly
> independent in my work.   I always saw the benefits of working within
> an organizational context to be "convenient" but suspect.> Anecdotally Yours,


>  - Steve


> On 1/15/19 9:18 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ wrote:
>> I don't know, man.  I'm an antisocial person.  But I seem to meet a
>> lot of people who truly *enjoy* being in and playing on teams.  Teams
>> are, by definition, algorithmic, some more, some less.  The same
>> could be said about going to arena sized concerts, or chanting silly
>> things at protests or rallies: Lock Him Up! Lock Him Up! 8^)  These
>> people don't *seem* like they feel demeaned.  They seem energized by
>> their mob behavior.  Teams are energized when they play "in the
>> zone".  Etc.  Even in the case of the high rank *nodes*.  Their
>> decisions are more algorithmic than those of the low rank nodes.  The
>> difference is they have to be *rational* ... they have to encapsulate
>> much more of the algorithm inside their heads, whereas the low rank
>> nodes have more of the algorithm in the machinery and processes
>> around them ... the "extended mind" as it were.  The people who "hate
>> the government" are *big* team players.  That's the problem.  They're
>> upset because they don't feel like they're part of the team.  They've
>> been left out (mostly because they can't catch or hit the damned
>> ball!).   On 1/14/19 10:48 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
>>
>>> Oh, it was more than the pomp Wouk bristled at.  It was the removal
>>> of discretion, as well.  The American military is perhaps better
>>> than most in that regard, but any military has to operate on
>>> algorithms, and nobody likes to be a node in an algorithm.  So, I
>>> guess my thesis was that in the second world war we got a double and
>>> conflicting lesson:  how effective an algorithmic system can be AND
>>> how demeaning it can be to be part of one.  Two solutions present
>>> themselves: 1. Hire mercenaries and 2. Automate.  Of course we have
>>> done both.    An officer of your dad’s rank, of course, was an
>>> exception and even within that giant system he made big decisions
>>> daily, decisions that affected the lives of thousands of people.
>>> There is a scene in that same book where an officer is required to
>>> make one of those decisions between surely killing 50 strangers or
>>> threatening the life of 150 you know that utilitarians are fond of
>>> posing.  It’s a harrowing scene.    I wonder what the relation is
>>> between a distaste for government and service as an enlisted
>>> soldier.  That’s not a rhetorical question.  I do wonder.  I am
>>> thinking there is a high correlation between states with high
>>> military participation  and states with anti-government politics.
>>> When a conservative thinks of “government” is he more likely to
>>> think of the military?
>>>
>>> ============================================================
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