[FRIAM] are we how we behave?

Wed Mar 6 12:49:03 EST 2019

Parts of this discussion remind me of my struggle to find my identity when
I was in highschool.  My father was a nuclear engineer and a manager of
large projects. I had always thought that science and engineering were,
respectively, the royal road to the truth and the methods for constructing
the built world.  I had already been admitted to Carnegie Institute of
Technology with an Alfred P. Sloan scholarship.  Then I read a book by
Mortimer J. Adler and Clifton Fadiman about the great books of Western
culture.  They argued for the importance of a liberal education and I was
convinced.  I started regretting that I had committed to a school that
wasn't a University.  Then a few things happened.  During freshman
orientation at CIT the provost said something like "If you came to a
technical university because you think that humanities and social science
are BS you might be surprised to learn that 40%of your coursework here will
be in those areas".   In 1967, two years later, CIT became Carnegie Mellon
University.  I transferred to UC Berkeley during my sophomore year.  For
what it's worth.

-----------------------------------
Frank Wimberly

My memoir:
https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

My scientific publications:
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 10:12 AM Nick Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Thanks for the elaboration, Dave.  Sounds like a great program.  Have you
> ever written it up AS a program proposal and broadcast it to
> universities?   That's how I got my job at Clark, surprisingly enough. The
> program description was published as a letter in *The American
> Psychologist *although the program itself was never formally created.  If
> you read it, please bear in mind that it was written half a century ago.
> Some of the language is a bit … funny.  Also not the brief letter published
> just ahead of it on… yes … psexism in sychology.
>
>
>
> But could your graduates write a sonnet?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David
> West
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:24 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?
>
>
>
> Ok Steve,
>
>
>
> First some elaboration:
>
>
>
> In 25 BC, Vitruvius (considered the founder of the discipline of
> architecture) stated:
>
>
>
> "The ideal architect should be a man of letters, a skillful draftsman, a
> mathematician, familiar with historical studies, a diligent student of
> philosophy, acquainted with music; not ignorant of medicine, learned in the
> responses of jurisconsults, familiar with astronomy, and astronomical
> calculations."
>
>
>
> In 2004(5?) Christopher Alexander (architect) spoke to an audience of 1000
> or so software developers; noting that professional architects are
> responsible for 10 percent of the built environment while software
> developers would be responsible for, essentially, 100% of the environment
> within which we all live, work, and play.
>
>
>
> Is it unreasonable to expect software developers to have an equivalent, in
> terms of modern knowledge, educational foundation?
>
>
>
> The term "modern polymath" has gained significant traction in the business
> and the design press. Business attention comes from an awareness that in
> order to thrive, to innovate, in a highly dynamic and complex context,
> decentralization of analysis and decision making is essential. But, this
> requires a qualitatively different kind of employee — one with both breadth
> and depth of knowledge. Moreover, both in business and design, work is done
> by teams  — multi-disciplinary teams; teams that must transcend individual
> silos of expertise. A modern polymath is someone with significant,
> integrated, breadth of understanding with multiple (albeit to different
> degrees) instances of depth. The visual metaphor is a "broken comb."
>
>
>
> Much more could be offered in terms of identifying and arguing for the
> need of broadly educated individuals and extension of that need into almost
> any discipline.
>
>
>
> Now the jumping up and down with a bit of YELLING.
>
>
>
> AS THEY HAVE EVOLVED, CONTEMPORARY UNIVERSITIES CANNOT GRADUATE
> INDIVIDUALS THAT EVEN APPROXIMATE MODERN POLYMATHS.
>
>
>
> I could list numerous reasons for this assertion, but will, instead, offer
> a single illustration.
>
>
>
> The program that I delivered at Highlands (co-taught with Pam Rostal) was
> designed to graduate software developers who were modern polymaths. We
> devised a set of 321 "competencies" and students had to demonstrate their
> mastery of each at up to five different levels ranging from "rote
> application under supervision" to "making a contribution to understanding."
> Competencies ranged in subject matter from Anthropology to Zooloqy. We also
> utilized 'just in time learning' and tinversion of the teaching approach:
> graduate level first, fundamentals later.
>
>
>
> It worked. The first year we had half the students (Freshmen to Graduate
> level) presenting refereed papers at two conferences with the highest
> rejection rate of all conferences at that time. All of our students were
> offered mid-level positions in industry - very notably at a national, not
> just local level) in software development — not entry level.
>
>
>
> [An article for the Cutter Journal on this subject should appear in the
> next few weeks. I will share with anyone interested when it is published.]
>
>
>
> The point of this reminiscence: As an experiment we put the knowledge base
> expected of our students in the form of traditional 3-4 credit courses. The
> number of courses and credits required was the equivalent of 4
> undergraduate degrees and 3 Masters Degree programs.
>
>
>
> Our program could not be replicated at any other university as it violated
> EVERY precept of university teaching and organization.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 9:29 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>
> > Nick -
>
> >
>
> > I think you described the difference between vocational training and
>
> > an education.   Hazing seems more relevant to fraternal organizations
>
> > and perhaps working as a GRA  or TA?
>
> >
>
> > My university motto was "to become more educated is to become more
>
> > human" and my Philosophy 101 professor made a very strong point of
>
> > that to the class.  I don't know if it effected anyone else like it did
> me.
>
> > I had been angling toward sharpening my head to the finest point
>
> > possible on the natural sciences (physics in particular), mathematics
>
> > and some of that new-fangled computer-engineering stuff.  His
>
> > admonition, along with a number of professors who made their subjects
>
> > much more interesting (and relevant) than I had ever encountered in
>
> > public education to that point caused me to take a very broad
>
> > selection of liberal arts courses which I feel almost exclusively
>
> > enrichened my life (personal and professional) to this day.
>
> >
>
> > I chose to study (a minimum of) Latin (as well as Greek and Esperanto)
>
> > to add to my street/border Spanish and I think I would have been
>
> > served (yet more) well by having more language education expected of me.
>
> > Dentists absolutely need to understand Calculus (and Tartar) as do
>
> > dental hygenists (bad pun), and doctors of course should understand
>
> > the chemistry of organisms (more bad yet).
>
> >
>
> > Dave -
>
> >
>
> > I for one would be interested in some elaboration on your point(s), or
>
> > at least to watch you jump up and down?
>
> >
>
> > - Steve
>
> >
>
> > > Nick, you pose an interesting question. From one perspective, that of
> an idealist who believes in the old version of a liberal arts education and
> the modern notion of a "modern polymath" I would answer yes to your
> question. As a veteran of academia i would emphatically jump up and down
> and say no - it is nonsense.
>
> > >
>
> > > I could elaborate on my answer, should anyone be interested.
>
> > >
>
> > > davew
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:
>
> > >> Did I really REALLY have to learn Latin to be an Educated Man.
>
> > >> Read in two languages to get a PHD?  Do you really have to get an A
> in organic
>
> > >> chemistry to be a good doctor?  In Calculus to be a dentist?
>
> > >>
>
> > >> How do we tell the difference between hazing and education?
>
> > >>
>
> > >> n
>
> > >>
>
> > >> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> > >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University
>
> > >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
>
> > >> From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <friam-bounces at redfish.com>] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 2:40 PM
>
> > >> To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com>
>
> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?
>
> > >>
>
> > >> I can't help but tie these maunderings to the modern epithets of
>
> > >> "snowflake" and "privilege" (shared by opposite but similar
>
> > >> ideologues).  I have to wonder what it means to "learn" something.
>
> > >> The question of whether a robot will take one's job cuts nicely to
>
> > >> the chase, I think.  How much of what any of us do/know is uniquely
>
> > >> (or
>
> > >> best) doable by a general intelligence (if such exists) versus
>
> > >> specific intelligence?  While I'm slightly fluent in a handful of
>
> > >> programming languages, I cannot (anymore) just sit down and write a
>
> > >> program in any one of them.  I was pretty embarrassed at a recent
>
> > >> interview where they asked me to code my solution to their
>
> > >> interview question on the whiteboard.  After I was done I noticed
>
> > >> sugar from 3 different languages in the code I "wrote" ... all mixed
> together for convenience.
>
> > >>  They said they didn't mind.  But who knows?  Which is better?
>
> > >> Being able to coherently code in one language, with nearly
>
> > >> compilable code off the bat?  Or the [dis]ability of changing
>
> > >> languages on a regular basis in order to express a relatively
>
> > >> portable algorithm?  Which one would be easier for a robot?  I
> honestly have no idea.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> But the idea that the arbitrary persnickety sugar I learned
>
> > >> yesterday
>
> > >> *should* be useful today seems like a bit of a snowflake/privileged
>
> > >> way to think (even ignoring the "problem of induction" we often
>
> > >> talk about on this list).  Is what it means to "learn" something
>
> > >> fundamentally different from one era to the next?  Do the practical
>
> > >> elements of "learning" evolve over time?  Does it really ...
>
> > >> really? ... help to know how a motor works in order to drive a car?
>
> > >> ... to reliably drive a car so that one's future is more
>
> > >> predictable?  ... to reduce the total cost of ownership of one's
>
> > >> car?  Or is there a logical layer of abstraction below which the Eloi
> really don't need to go?
>
> > >>
>
> > >> On 3/5/19 11:04 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>
> > >>> Interesting to see the "new bar" set so low as age 30.  Reminds me
>
> > >>> of my own youth when the "Hippie generation" was saying "don't
>
> > >>> trust anyone over 30!".  Later I got to know a lot of folks from the
> "Beat"
>
> > >>> generation who were probably in their 30's by that time and rather
>
> > >>> put out that they couldn't keep their "hip" going amongst the new
> youth culture.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> ...
>
> > >>> My mules are named Fortran/Prolog/APL/C/PERL and
> VMS/BSD/Solaris/NeXT
>
> > >>> and IBM/CDC/CRAY/DEC and GL/OpenGL/VRPN/VRML.   I barely know the
>
> > >>> names of the new
>
> > >>> tractors/combines/cropdusters/satellite-imaging/laser-leveling/???
>
> > >>> technology.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Always to be counted on for nostalgic maunderings,
>
> > >> --
>
> > >> ☣ uǝlƃ
>
> > >> ============================================================
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >> ============================================================
>
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>
> > >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
>
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>
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>
> > >>
>
> > > ============================================================
>
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>
> > > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
>
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>
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>
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>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > ============================================================
>
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>
> > at St. John's College to unsubscribe
>
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>
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>
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>
> >
>
>
>
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>
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>
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
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>
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>
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> ============================================================
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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