[FRIAM] are we how we behave?

Wed Mar 6 13:47:26 EST 2019

DON’T GIVE UP!

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 11:10 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?

Nick,

Yes the program and a similar effort led by Richard Gabriel — Master of Fine Arts in Software — was pitched to numerous universities, generating huge enthusiasm and ultimate falling victim to curricular affairs committees.

davew

On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, at 10:12 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Thanks for the elaboration, Dave.  Sounds like a great program.  Have you ever written it up AS a program proposal and broadcast it to universities?   That's how I got my job at Clark, surprisingly enough. The program description was published as a letter in The American Psychologist although the program itself was never formally created.  If you read it, please bear in mind that it was written half a century ago.  Some of the language is a bit … funny.  Also not the brief letter published just ahead of it on… yes … psexism in sychology. 

But could your graduates write a sonnet? 

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2019 9:24 AM

To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?

Ok Steve,

First some elaboration:

In 25 BC, Vitruvius (considered the founder of the discipline of architecture) stated:

"The ideal architect should be a man of letters, a skillful draftsman, a mathematician, familiar with historical studies, a diligent student of philosophy, acquainted with music; not ignorant of medicine, learned in the responses of jurisconsults, familiar with astronomy, and astronomical calculations."

In 2004(5?) Christopher Alexander (architect) spoke to an audience of 1000 or so software developers; noting that professional architects are responsible for 10 percent of the built environment while software developers would be responsible for, essentially, 100% of the environment within which we all live, work, and play.

Is it unreasonable to expect software developers to have an equivalent, in terms of modern knowledge, educational foundation?

The term "modern polymath" has gained significant traction in the business and the design press. Business attention comes from an awareness that in order to thrive, to innovate, in a highly dynamic and complex context, decentralization of analysis and decision making is essential. But, this requires a qualitatively different kind of employee — one with both breadth and depth of knowledge. Moreover, both in business and design, work is done by teams  — multi-disciplinary teams; teams that must transcend individual silos of expertise. A modern polymath is someone with significant, integrated, breadth of understanding with multiple (albeit to different degrees) instances of depth. The visual metaphor is a "broken comb."

Much more could be offered in terms of identifying and arguing for the need of broadly educated individuals and extension of that need into almost any discipline.

Now the jumping up and down with a bit of YELLING.

AS THEY HAVE EVOLVED, CONTEMPORARY UNIVERSITIES CANNOT GRADUATE INDIVIDUALS THAT EVEN APPROXIMATE MODERN POLYMATHS.

I could list numerous reasons for this assertion, but will, instead, offer a single illustration.

The program that I delivered at Highlands (co-taught with Pam Rostal) was designed to graduate software developers who were modern polymaths. We devised a set of 321 "competencies" and students had to demonstrate their mastery of each at up to five different levels ranging from "rote application under supervision" to "making a contribution to understanding." Competencies ranged in subject matter from Anthropology to Zooloqy. We also utilized 'just in time learning' and tinversion of the teaching approach: graduate level first, fundamentals later.

It worked. The first year we had half the students (Freshmen to Graduate level) presenting refereed papers at two conferences with the highest rejection rate of all conferences at that time. All of our students were offered mid-level positions in industry - very notably at a national, not just local level) in software development — not entry level.

[An article for the Cutter Journal on this subject should appear in the next few weeks. I will share with anyone interested when it is published.]

The point of this reminiscence: As an experiment we put the knowledge base expected of our students in the form of traditional 3-4 credit courses. The number of courses and credits required was the equivalent of 4 undergraduate degrees and 3 Masters Degree programs.

Our program could not be replicated at any other university as it violated EVERY precept of university teaching and organization.

davew

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 9:29 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Nick -

> 

> I think you described the difference between vocational training and

> an education.   Hazing seems more relevant to fraternal organizations

> and perhaps working as a GRA  or TA?

> 

> My university motto was "to become more educated is to become more

> human" and my Philosophy 101 professor made a very strong point of

> that to the class.  I don't know if it effected anyone else like it did me.

> I had been angling toward sharpening my head to the finest point

> possible on the natural sciences (physics in particular), mathematics

> and some of that new-fangled computer-engineering stuff.  His

> admonition, along with a number of professors who made their subjects

> much more interesting (and relevant) than I had ever encountered in

> public education to that point caused me to take a very broad

> selection of liberal arts courses which I feel almost exclusively

> enrichened my life (personal and professional) to this day.

> 

> I chose to study (a minimum of) Latin (as well as Greek and Esperanto)

> to add to my street/border Spanish and I think I would have been

> served (yet more) well by having more language education expected of me.

> Dentists absolutely need to understand Calculus (and Tartar) as do

> dental hygenists (bad pun), and doctors of course should understand

> the chemistry of organisms (more bad yet).

> 

> Dave -

> 

> I for one would be interested in some elaboration on your point(s), or

> at least to watch you jump up and down?

> 

> - Steve

> 

> > Nick, you pose an interesting question. From one perspective, that of an idealist who believes in the old version of a liberal arts education and the modern notion of a "modern polymath" I would answer yes to your question. As a veteran of academia i would emphatically jump up and down and say no - it is nonsense.

> >

> > I could elaborate on my answer, should anyone be interested.

> >

> > davew

> >

> >

> > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019, at 2:57 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:

> >> Did I really REALLY have to learn Latin to be an Educated Man. 

> >> Read in two languages to get a PHD?  Do you really have to get an A in organic

> >> chemistry to be a good doctor?  In Calculus to be a dentist?  

> >>

> >> How do we tell the difference between hazing and education?

> >>

> >> n

> >>

> >> Nicholas S. Thompson

> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University

> >>  <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

> >>

> >>

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: Friam [ <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ?

> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2019 2:40 PM

> >> To: FriAM < <mailto:friam at redfish.com> friam at redfish.com>

> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] are we how we behave?

> >>

> >> I can't help but tie these maunderings to the modern epithets of

> >> "snowflake" and "privilege" (shared by opposite but similar

> >> ideologues).  I have to wonder what it means to "learn" something. 

> >> The question of whether a robot will take one's job cuts nicely to

> >> the chase, I think.  How much of what any of us do/know is uniquely

> >> (or

> >> best) doable by a general intelligence (if such exists) versus

> >> specific intelligence?  While I'm slightly fluent in a handful of

> >> programming languages, I cannot (anymore) just sit down and write a

> >> program in any one of them.  I was pretty embarrassed at a recent

> >> interview where they asked me to code my solution to their

> >> interview question on the whiteboard.  After I was done I noticed

> >> sugar from 3 different languages in the code I "wrote" ... all mixed together for convenience.

> >>  They said they didn't mind.  But who knows?  Which is better? 

> >> Being able to coherently code in one language, with nearly

> >> compilable code off the bat?  Or the [dis]ability of changing

> >> languages on a regular basis in order to express a relatively

> >> portable algorithm?  Which one would be easier for a robot?  I honestly have no idea.

> >>

> >> But the idea that the arbitrary persnickety sugar I learned

> >> yesterday

> >> *should* be useful today seems like a bit of a snowflake/privileged

> >> way to think (even ignoring the "problem of induction" we often

> >> talk about on this list).  Is what it means to "learn" something

> >> fundamentally different from one era to the next?  Do the practical

> >> elements of "learning" evolve over time?  Does it really ...

> >> really? ... help to know how a motor works in order to drive a car? 

> >> ... to reliably drive a car so that one's future is more

> >> predictable?  ... to reduce the total cost of ownership of one's

> >> car?  Or is there a logical layer of abstraction below which the Eloi really don't need to go?

> >>

> >> On 3/5/19 11:04 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> >>> Interesting to see the "new bar" set so low as age 30.  Reminds me

> >>> of my own youth when the "Hippie generation" was saying "don't

> >>> trust anyone over 30!".  Later I got to know a lot of folks from the "Beat"

> >>> generation who were probably in their 30's by that time and rather

> >>> put out that they couldn't keep their "hip" going amongst the new youth culture.

> >>>

> >>> ...

> >>> My mules are named Fortran/Prolog/APL/C/PERL and  VMS/BSD/Solaris/NeXT

> >>> and IBM/CDC/CRAY/DEC and GL/OpenGL/VRPN/VRML.   I barely know the

> >>> names of the new

> >>> tractors/combines/cropdusters/satellite-imaging/laser-leveling/???

> >>> technology.

> >>>

> >>> Always to be counted on for nostalgic maunderings,

> >> --

> >> ☣ uǝlƃ

> >> ============================================================

> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at

> >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe

> >>  <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

> >> archives back to 2003:  <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

> >> FRIAM-COMIC  <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

> >>

> >>

> >> ============================================================

> >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at

> >> cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe

> >>  <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

> >> archives back to 2003:  <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

> >> FRIAM-COMIC  <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

> >>

> > ============================================================

> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at

> > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe

> >  <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

> > archives back to 2003:  <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

> > FRIAM-COMIC  <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

> >

> 

> 

> ============================================================

> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe

> at St. John's College to unsubscribe

>  <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

> archives back to 2003:  <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

> FRIAM-COMIC  <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

> 

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe  <http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003:  <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC  <http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Attachments:

*	Pyschobiology as a form of general education.pdf

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20190306/4ee75794/attachment-0001.html>