[FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection

Sun Jan 26 01:47:12 EST 2020

I would go along with Johsua Epstein's "if you did not grow it you did not
explain it". Keep in mind that this motto applies to problems involving
emergence. So what I'm saying is that it's in many cases futile to apply
logic to reasoning to find answers - and I refer to the emergent properties
of the human brain as well as to ABM (agent based modeling) software. But
even if the problem involves emergence, it's easy for both human and
computer logic to apply validation logic. Similar to the P=NP problem*,
it's difficult to find the solution, but easy to verify.

So my answer to "As software engineers, what conditions would a program
have to fulfill to say that a computer was monitoring “itself" is simply:
explicitly verify the results. There are many approaches to do this
verification; applying logic, checking against measured actual data,
checking for violations of physics, etc.

*I know you all know it, just a refresher, The P=NP problem is one of the
biggest unsolved computer science problems. There is a class of very
difficult to solve problems and a class of very easy to verify problems.
The P=NP problem asks the following: if you have a difficult to solve but
easy to verify problem, is it possible to find a solution that is
reasonably easy for a computer to solve. "Reasonably easy" is defined as
can you solve it in polynomial time. The current algorithms takes
exponential time to solve it and even for a moderate size problem that
means more time that the age of the universe for a supercomputer to solve
it.

Pieter

On Sat, 25 Jan 2020 at 23:04, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> I would say the problem of debugging (or introspection if you insist)  is
> like if you find yourself at some random place, never seen before, and the
> task it do develop a map and learn the local language and customs.  If one
> is given the job of law enforcement (debugging violations of law), it is
> necessary to collect quite a bit of information, e.g. the laws of the
> jurisdiction, the sensitivities and conflicts in the area, and detailed
> geography.  In haphazardly-developed  software, learning about one part of
> a city teaches you nothing about another part of the city.   In
> well-designed software, one can orient oneself quickly because there are
> many easily-learnable conventions to follow.    I would say this
> distinction between the modeler and the modeled is not that helpful.   To
> really avoid bugs, one wants to have metaphorical citizens that are
> genetically incapable of breaking laws.   Privileged access is kind of
> beside the point because in practice software is often far too big to fully
> rationalize.
>
>
>
> *From: *Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of "
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com" <thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, January 25, 2020 at 11:57 AM
> *To: *'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection
>
>
>
> Thanks, Marcus,
>
>
>
> Am I correct that all of your examples fall with in this frame;
>
>
>
>
> I keep expecting you guys to scream at me, “Of course, you idiot,
> self-perception is partial and subject to error!  HTF could it be
> otherwise?”   I would love that.  I would record it and put it on loop for
> half my colleagues in psychology departments around the world.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 25, 2020 12:16 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Abduction and Introspection
>
>
>
> *Nick writes:*
>
>
>
>  As software engineers, what conditions would a program have to fulfill to
> say that a computer was monitoring “itself
>
>
>
> It is common for codes that calculate things to periodically test
> invariants that should hold.   For example, a physics code might test for
> conservation of mass or energy.   A conversion between a data structure
> with one index scheme to another is often followed by a check to ensure the
> total number of records did not change, or if it did change that it changed
> by an expected amount.   It is also possible, but less common, to write a
> code so that proofs are constructed by virtue of the code being compliable
> against a set of types.   The types describe all of the conditions that
> must hold regarding the behavior of a function.    In that case it is not
> necessary to detect if something goes haywire at runtime because it is
> simply not possible for something to go haywire.  (A computer could still
> miscalculate due to a cosmic ray, or some other physical interruption, but
> assuming that did not happen a complete proof-carrying code would not fail
> within its specifications.)
>
> A weaker form of self-monitoring is to periodically check for memory or
> disk usage, and to raise an alarm if they are unexpectedly high or low.
>  Such an alarm might trigger cleanups of old results, otherwise kept around
> for convenience.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
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