[FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap

Sun Jul 5 14:55:55 EDT 2020

I don’t believe in the existence of laziness.  Laziness is just the not-X to the X that you are doing. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2020 11:36 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap

Thanks for the title and ideas, but I humbly decline the offer. I'm unfortunately too much of an "idea skimmer", only going an inch deep into many deep subjects. That's probably my way of saying I'm too lazy to delve too deeply into it :-)

On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 2:50 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Gary, 

Ever since I hitchhiked around France as  kid I have had an article lurking in my craw about your subject, variations in conceptions of freedom across the “western” world.  The idea of giving my passport into my hotel when I checked in inorder that the police could come look it over in the night sounded really bizarre to me but was as routine to the French as bidets.  The title of the article is, Degrees of Freedom    I don’t think I am ever going to write the article, so you can have the title.  It still needs writing.  

Do you know the idea of “contrast classes”?  (I hope I have that right).  It is the idea that our notion of X is shaped as much by our understanding of not-x as it is by our understanding of X.  So, for instance, the collapse of American democracy in the last 30 years can be attributed, in part, to the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 90’s, because they were the authoritarian Not-X to our X.  Also, the kleptocracy of modern Russia is the Not-X to the collectivist, centralized X of the Soviet economy.  Finally, Jill LePore, in These Truths, argues that the highly aggressive American notion of freedom was the Not-X to our prolongation of slavery.  We understood what liberty was precisely because we had daily acquaintance with its opposite.  

So, in your soon-to-be published exploration of the variations in the conception of freedom please give a shout to contrast classes.  

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2020 10:19 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap

Freedom of speech is a tricky thing. I spent 50 of my 61 years in the USA, where it is almost a national religion. It is certainly baked into our psyche. It is nonetheless tempered by a variety of laws, most of which appeal to Americans' common sense (whether or not we do indeed have much common sense is debatable, though my biased view is that we do). The quintessential example given as a limit to freedom of speech is yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, causing people to stampede with resultant injury or death. US law also penalizes libel (written damage to someone's reputation through false statements) and slander (verbal version of libel). We also have laws against false advertising.

The interesting thing to me is in the differences by country in the interpretation/enforcement of these laws and the attitudes of the people toward freedom of speech (I suppose laws feedback to attitudes and vice versa). Being nearly a national religion, we Americans feel we have the right to say basically whatever we want about anything (I suppose we feel speech is simply aural/written expression of our opinions, which we love to express, loudly). Paradoxically, we are pretty thin-skinned, and easily take offense when we are on the receiving end of such tirades. Our attitudes towards governance in general (mostly against) is also baked into our psyche.

In Ecuador, slander and libel are taken much more seriously than in the USA, both in the culture and the laws. Consequently, people are much more reticent about complaining publicly about something. Social media is changing this a lot, making it much more common to call politicians corrupt (maybe the consequence of having their rights to political dissent squashed for a decade under Rafael Correa, now ex-president and indicted criminal on the run). But libel (or whatever it is called when it applies to writing about a business) is still quite easily prosecuted. I've heard of many cases where someone is charged and convicted for simply writing publicly (i.e. on social media) about a bad experience they had with a business.

What insights do other folks on the list from different countries besides the USA and Ecuador have?

On Fri, Jun 5, 2020 at 10:10 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net <mailto:jofr at cas-group.net> > wrote:

oh sorry, I overlooked your post. When does an opinion become propaganda? I think this happens when you repeat one-sided opinions. In this sense the NY Times tried to do the right thing, but failed nevertheless :-/

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > 

Date: 6/5/20 16:15 (GMT+01:00) 

To: FriAM <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> > 

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Freedom of opinion or fascist trap 

New York Times says senator Tom Cotton's op-ed did not meet editorial standards 
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jun/05/new-york-times-says-tom-cotton-opinion-piece-did-not-meet-editorial-standards

As I tried to say in my previous post: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/credibility-tp7596748.html
The NYT has lost its Op-Ed credibility. For me, Bret Stephens was the trigger. I'd already been miffed that I couldn't simply suspend my subscription for a little while. You have to call them on the phone, which is irritating for someone who doesn't like talking on the phone. So, hiring Stephens was the 2nd justification. And I've considered re-subscribing since their GitHub covid19 data came online. But then the Cotton Op-Ed changed my mind. With their backtracking and now admitting the Cotton Op-Ed was a mistake, I'm more likely to resub before the elections. Their election tools are great.

But their credibility has taken a huge hit, however you cut it.

On 6/5/20 4:32 AM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
> The NY Times op ed from Tom Cotton named "Send in the troops" has caused a bit of a controversy, even inside the NY Times 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/opinion/tom-cotton-protests-military.html
> 
> The NY Times is trying to represent the whole spectrum of politically significant opinions. If they only print opinions that fit to one worldview they are making propaganda. If they publish all kinds of opinions, they may support fascism, authoritarianism or racism.
> 
> How do you solve this dilemma? Did they fall into a trap now because they have supported the rise of fascism by printing this opinion, as Jason Stanley, the author of "How fascism works" says?

-- 
☣ uǝlƃ

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