[FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM

[Frank Wimberly]

Well, most people say that the moon is the prime cause of the tides.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 2:05 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, frank, for that affirmation.
>
>
>
> I am sitting here, on this hot day, looking at the tree across the street,
> and saying to myself (The Behaviorist) am I REALLY going to get away with
> telling Glen he cannot say, “That tree is causing the yard to be shaded.”
> Something not right about that.    Modulo obsessive thinking.
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Monday, July 20, 2020 1:59 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM
>
>
>
> Nick, you are correct in saying that causation is a relation between
> events.  The most useful definition of causation that we found in our
> statistical causal reasoning research (viz Spirtes, Glymour, and Scheines)
> was event A is a cause of event B if the occurrence of A is followed by a
> change in the probability density over the possible values of B.  Modulo
> obsessional tweaking.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020, 1:39 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Nick (to Jon)
> Re Gen Phen: That's the Whole Point, here.  There are two different
> distinctions, here, one apparently arising form computation (?) and one
> arising from biology.  Glen originally mentioned a GENerator/ PHENomenon
> distinction which seems to be the broader of the two and does not forbid
> downward causation.  More recently we have been talking about the
> GENotype/PHENotype distinction which is narrower and does -
> historically-forbid downward causation.  So, I think we need to spell the
> words out completely from now on, so we know which game we are playing.
>
> Your reference to language games raises the question of what sort of "game"
> are we playing when we talk about causation.  One rule of that game, I
> think, which I may have violated myself in this discussion, is that things
> cannot cause things.  Only events can cause events.   The reason is that
> the
> notion of cause involves temporal order and things (as opposed to the
> arrival of things or the placement of things or the removal things) cannot
> be in a temporal order.  I am wondering if adherence to this discipline
> might make the whole problem of downward causation disappear?  So, the
> addition of the 5th stick (an event) to previous four sticks CAUSES the
> other 4 sticks not to rotate (an event) and CAUSES the structure to be
> strong (another event).  Notice that this formulation appears to forbid us
> to say that the constraints on the rotation of the other four sticks
> provided by the fifth stick CAUSES the strengthening of the structure
> because those two events are temporally inextricable.  What IS the relation
> between those two facts if not a causal one?  I think I would argue that
> it's a constitutive relation; ie, the rotational constraints constitute the
> greater strength of the square with the fifth stick.
>
> Nick
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> Jon to Nick
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Jon Zingale
> Sent: Monday, July 20, 2020 11:07 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] better simulating actual FriAM
>
> Maybe I am misremembering (which clearly happens), but didn't the
> discussion
> of gen-phen-like maps arise in the context of goal-function distinctions?
> In
> this latter class, we included the thermostat system where constraining
> systems to Weismann's doctrine would not be meaningful. Clearly, in the
> goal-function system, an individual that changes the thermostat dial
> because
> they prefer the house to be at 60 degrees rather than 80 degrees (a
> variation on function) performs downwardly to affect the tolerance of the
> piece of metal or mercury switch (a variation on goal). Are we breaking the
> semantic game by now demanding that our admissable gen-phen-like maps
> preserve Weismann's doctrine? I understood Glen's evocation to not be so
> constrained.
>
>
>
> --
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