[FRIAM] millenarianism

Sun Jun 7 14:36:57 EDT 2020

Frank, Russ, 

I was trying to retire gracefully from the field, but you are blocking my retreat.  I actually can think of a hundred arguments against the proposition that “talking is just flapping gums” and a hundred experiments to disprove it.  It’s an empirical assertion, and it’s wrong.  With “innerness of consciousness” assertion, understood as it is usually understood and not as The Steelman understands it, the problem is logical.  It’s internally inconsistent.  (You’ll pardon the expression. )

My belief is NOT that my monist position on consciousness is complete and totally satisfying.  In fact there are many conversations in which I engage in dualistic talk, such as, for instance, conversations about “voice” in writing, etc.  My belief is only that a monist position leads one to encounter fewer contradictions than a dualist one.  Frank, and perhaps Russ, also, have held that the contradictions encountered by my monism (behaviorism, what-have-you) are so central, so essential,  to their understanding of humans that they regard  the position as a nonstarter.  

But all of this is small change in comparison with the question of whether I have the power to direct my own mind, to decide what to think.  I don’t think a monist (like I am trying to be) can entertain that possibility.  Now, of course, all organisms make decision, so it is not the fact of decision-making that is challenging to monism.  Nor is the illusion of an I-that-decides all that challenging to explain.  What a monist must never admit, on my account is that it is the [I-that-decides] that actually decides.  I think that is the nub of where we have disagreed over the years.  

Thank you both for continually keeping me honest. 

All the best, 

Nick 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 11:26 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

Thanks, Frank. I agree completely. This is a long-standing issue with Nick. I'm glad you point out the similarities.

-- Russ Abbott                                       
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:04 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> > wrote:

"It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, ... that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words."

That's what I used to say to you about consciousness and having an inner life. 

Frank  

On Sun, Jun 7, 2020 at 10:56 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Steve,

Craven tho it might be, I am going to desert you on this field of battle.  It is SO evident to me that any conversation, even the most banal and proforma exchange of words, is NOT a mere flapping of gums, that I am blinded its self-evidentness, incapacitated by its obviousness, left without words.  

You’re on your own, buddy. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2020 10:39 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] millenarianism

uǝlƃ ☣ wrote:

The argument I stole from wherever wasn't that talking was a *form* of grooming, but that it *replaced* grooming. Personally, I wouldn't go that far. I'd argue that as soon as we learned to talk, talking became yet-another-sensorimotor-behavior. I.e. talking is in the same category as having sex, punching someone in the face, riding a tandem bicycle, combing lice out of your kid's hair, etc. It's all the same thing.

Well corrected... thanks.   

The gripe I have with most people is they reify their "thoughts", give too much primacy to the idea of material-free interaction. Words are nothing *but* flapping gums and banged keys.

I will admit that having learned to type at a very early age (by oldSkool standards...14) there is something *like* a visceral satisfaction in banging the keys.   When I have forced myself to write longhand (see the anecdote about a first grade teacher breaking a ruler on the knuckles) it can *also* be viscerally satisfying, especially when using a fountain pen on quality paper.   And yet I find "nothing more" hyperbolic.

So, to Marcus' point, talking and punching are equally manipulative. And to Nick's point, talking to oneself can be very satisfying, like shadow boxing. But fighting an *alive* opponent is always more interesting.

Touche' !    

What about "dancing"?  My limited experience with Tae Kwon Do peaked during sparring which with the *right* opponent/partner felt more like Dancing than Fighting.  Similarly with fencing (foil only for me, no sabres or broadswords).  Neither felt choreographed.

Some of our threads here feel more like squabbling than "dancing"... not quite a melee (usually) even though there are some real free-for-all.

I re-submit my previous question of the role/value/import of "an audience/readership" participation.

SS> In contrast on this (now bent) thread,  Marcel Duchamp stated (authoritatively?!):

 “All in all, the creative act is not performed by the artist alone; the spectator brings the work in contact with the external world by deciphering and interpreting its inner qualifications and thus adds his contribution to the creative act,”   

SS> Many creatives (visual artists, writers, and more obviously performing artists) have agreed with this...   the audience "participation" if not "response" is key to their "completion"...  I don't know if this maps onto "closure" in CS, but maybe.

- Steve

On 6/6/20 3:06 PM, Steve Smith wrote:

Glen has suggested variously that he doesn't believe in communication, and that in humans "dialog is a form of social grooming" (I stand prepared to be corrected for mis-apprehending/stating Glen's positions).

I'm inclined to agree with him somewhat, though I DO believe some of our chatter is at least an *attempt to communicate*.   So is that *all* we are doing when we blather away here?  Or perhaps just Bombastic Careening (nod to Jon)?  Mental Masturbation?   Dominance Aggression?  Random Neuromuscular Spasms?

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-- 

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

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