[FRIAM] Acid epistemology - restarting a previous conversation

Sat Mar 7 03:52:27 EST 2020

Nick,

I would assert that "I know you" if I can pick you out of a crowd given a 1 second glimpse of 1/100 of your profile.  We do this kind of thing all the time.

I could not tell someone else how to replicate my "know how" which is an application of my "know you."

The "believe it very strongly" doesn't work, at least for me, because I believe little or anything. "Data" coming into my "perceptual/consciousness field" whether it happens on coffee at  FriAM, or LSD in the desert, is equally provisional and generally suspect — and it usually stays that way.

Which reminds me, you never did tell my why doubt is painful.

Yes, this knowledge stuff is pretty confusing, which is precisely why I find it so fascinating.

davew

On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, at 7:51 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> Dave, 
> 
> How about: 
> 
> "I am familiar with X and can give a description of X that others will 
> recognize"?
> 
> Hmm!  That would seem to apply to unicorns.  Do I know unicorns?  
> 
> Naaaah!  I am going back to my pragmaticism.  To know something is just 
> to believe it very strongly.  Truth is irrelevant.  So, the fact that 
> you know that unicorns exist tells me absolutely nothing -- per se -- 
> about the existence of unicorns.  
> 
> So, I stipulate that acid experiences can give people firm beliefs and 
> therefore knowledge in the limited sense above.  
> 
> But what about "know-how".  It would seem to suggest another meaning.  
> We used to have a TV that would go funny.  I discovered that I could 
> fix it by slapping it upside of the head.  I knew HOW to fix the tv.  
> 
> To know how to achieve a goal is to believe in a procedure for fixing 
> something, to be able to convey that procedure to another person, AND 
> THAT PROCEDURE WORKS AS CONVEYED.  So you know me only if you can give 
> a description of me that would cause a third person to pick me out of a 
> crowd?  
> 
> That could apply to god or unicorns, right?  And does not imply the 
> existence of either. 
> 
> I dunno, dave.  This "knowledge" stuff is pretty confusing. 
> 
> N
> 
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>  
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:30 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acid epistemology - restarting a previous conversation
> 
> Nick,
> 
> We assert "knowledge" all the time.
> 
> You "know" that is is Friday morning and you need to be on your way to 
> St. John's.
> Person X "knows" that Trump is an A __h_le.
> Everyone "knows' that the sun is 93 million (approximately, depending 
> on position in orbit) million miles away.
> I "know" the sky is blue today, for the first time in three weeks.
> 
> The other person is not the only one who believes in auras. I have seen 
> them (and not under the influence). I might have a very different 
> explanation and even a different perception, but that does not mean we 
> both "know" them to exist.
> 
> The problem with working understandings is their tendency to become 
> working definitions and simply exclude anything inconvenient from being 
> "known."
> 
> Can you think of a working understanding that would allow both of the 
> following sentences to be discussed on equal footing?
> 
> I know Nick.
> 
> I know God.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 3, 2020, at 5:28 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> > Two things, Dave,
> > 
> > Peirce had actually 4 ways of knowing.  Stubbornness, Authority, 
> > Reasonableness, Experience, which he tries to treat with equal 
> > respect, but his heart is obviously with the last.  (The Fixation of Belief).
> > You make me wonder about the relation tween Peirce and that Vedic text. 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > But this begs the most fundamental question raised by your post.  What 
> > is knowledge, other than belief, and what is belief other than that 
> > upon which we are prepared to act?  There is one member of our group 
> > who, very much in the spirit of William James's altered states, wants 
> > to work on aura's  He has a tentative belief in aura's.  When through 
> > experiment and analysis he renders that belief "firm", does he then 
> > have knowledge.  Already he believes in the possibility of aura's.  We 
> > know that this is the case because of the effort he is willing to 
> > expend in their demonstration.  Does he have knowledge of the 
> > existence of auras?  Does he already know that aura's exist?
> > 
> > I think problems with the very idea of knowledge lie at the core of 
> > this discussion, and we need some sort of working understanding of 
> > what we mean by it, if we are to precede.
> > 
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University 
> > ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 1:48 AM
> > To: friam at redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Acid epistemology - restarting a previous conversation
> > 
> > Epistemology, loosely speaking, is the “theory of knowing.” What can we 
> > know; how do we know we know it; the difference between knowing that, 
> > knowing how, and knowing about; and, issues of the “truth” of what we 
> > know and/or justifications for thinking we know anything?
> > 
> > An associated issue concerns how we come to acquire knowledge. Two 
> > means of acquisition are commonly proposed: a priori (independent of 
> > experience) and a posteriori (by experience).
> > 
> > A Vedic text, Tattirtiya Aranyaka (900-600 BCE), lists four sources of 
> > knowledge, roughly translated as: tradition/scripture, perception, 
> > authority, and reasoning/inference. Of these the fourth and second seem 
> > to map onto a priori and a posteriori.
> > 
> > Scholasticism — exemplars include Albertus Magnus, Duns Scotus, and 
> > Thomas Aquinas — was concerned with integrating three of the Vedic 
> > sources of knowledge: tradition/scripture (Christian theology), 
> > authority (Aristotle and Plato), and reasoning/inference.
> > 
> > Modern epistemology (and Peirce) seems to be concerned with two of the 
> > sources: tradition/scripture (peer reviewed science journals) and 
> > reasoning/inference.
> > 
> > Claims to "know" something, in a naive sense of know, like "I know that 
> > I am," "I know that I am in love," "I had the most interesting 
> > experience at FriAM just now," mystical visions, kinesthetic “muscle 
> > memory,” chi imbalance, and, of course, hallucinogen induced altered 
> > states of consciousness.
> > 
> > Is it possible to construct a theory of knowledge that could extend to, 
> > incorporate, a wider range of experience and especially mystical and 
> > psychedelic experience? If it was possible, would it be of value? If 
> > possible and of value, what parameters could be set to limn the 
> > resulting philosophy?
> > 
> > davew
> > 
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> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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