[FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Sat May 2 14:06:21 EDT 2020

Ah, Russ, 

It’s great to hear from you, again.  One of the best things I ever wrote came about because of a year of arguing with you!

The lesson I take is that the designs for life maintenance have nothing to do with the designs for happiness.  We are not designed to be happy;  we are designed to eke out an existence on a semi-arid plain within a small group surrounded by hostile groups.  I.e, we are designed to be miserable.  So if we are to be happy,  amidst plenty, we have to make choices – collective choices. 

For the details of the rat experiment, look at page 224 in https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238356686_A_Utopian_perspective_on_ecology_and_development 

Please let me know if it is unreadable. 

Oh, just to head off some flames from that famous quasi=libertarian dragon, Dave (Hi, Dave!), I make no pretense to knowing HOW to make collective choices.  I just know that we will make them, one way or another.  Again I commend to you all Jim Rutt’s recent podcast on consensus and policy. 

Thanks again, Russ, for all your help with my writing. 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Nick, What lessons do you take away from the rat experiment? Certainly, breeders can use space differently from natural populations. But that isn't surprising. If the natural density of a rat population is 200/quarter acre, what do you make of that, and why do you think it's important?

P.S. I'm assuming that we don't have to argue too much about what "natural density" means. Of course, it will differ depending on circumstances such as weather, food availability, etc. But I assume that's not your point.

-- Russ Abbott                                       
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

 <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com

 <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Nick, What lessons do you take away from the rat experiment? Certainly, breeders can use space differently from natural populations. But that isn't surprising. If the natural density of a rat population is 200/quarter acre, what do you make of that, and why do you think it's important?

P.S. I'm assuming that we don't have to argue too much about what "natural density" means. Of course, it will differ depending on circumstances such as weather, food availability, etc. But I assume that's not your point.

-- Russ Abbott                                       
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 9:47 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> > wrote:

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:

Colleagues, 

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again.  What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving?  What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy.  We can go to bars and concerts and football games?  Is that the economy we are reviving?  It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?  

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop.  They never got above two hundred.  Infant mortality, etc., was appalling.  Carnage.  In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.  

Don’t yell at me.  What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand? 

Nick 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> 

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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-- 

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

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