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[Frank Wimberly]

Glen,

Good luck with that (having the same dream by hooking people together)

You seem to minimize the importance of the content of dreams which is what
most people are interested in.  By the way, some people do have recurring
dreams especially bad dreams.  There can be variations but they are
essentially the same dream.

I told you and Nick but not the group about the very large study we did
with sleeping newborns in which we measured their EEG and EKG while making
loud clicks, right?

Frank



On Wed, May 20, 2020 at 9:56 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:

> What we call "dreaming" is nothing but a dynamic configuration of our
> bodies. The same is true with thoughts and emotions. The only way to
> *reliably* study dreams, thoughts, and emotions is by measuring the body.
>
> Now, we can, of course, focus in on some *parts* of the body ... like
> watching where eyeball focal points go when looking at a picture or,
> indeed, the words that come out of someone's mouth when they self-report
> what they ate for dinner, or what they dreamt about. But the fact remains
> that the only way to study thoughts and emotions is by measuring the body.
>
> It's important to realize that the parts of the body you're measuring is
> not a *proxy* for some type of thought or emotion. So, that's a complete
> misunderstanding. REM movement is not a proxy for dreaming. The only way to
> measure dreams is to measure the body because it's the body that's acting.
> There's nothing *but* the body to measure. You can't measure dreams because
> dreams don't exist. Only the body exists.
>
> But we *can* identify patterns in the body's configuration that correlate
> with that body yapping about "dreams". And if those patterns show a tight
> cluster, then we can say that that cluster is the state of the body we call
> "dreaming". (In my limited exposure, I've seen no evidence that the cluster
> of body configurations is all that tight. REM is an isolated and misleading
> measure. I think we'd also need some measure of *-crine signaling, elevated
> chemicals in the blood, etc.)
>
> As for observing your *experience* of the dream, once we've done ALL THE
> WORK above, then we can talk about *inducing* similar experiences in your
> future self or inducing them in others. So, we might be able to *force* you
> to have the same dream over and over again. And maybe I could "observe"
> your experience by getting you to induce the body configuration in me.
> Maybe this could even be done in near real-time with some very fast AI. We
> hook the harness to you and me, with the machine between us and as the
> machine measures your state it quickly induces a similar state in me. Then
> we'd be dreaming the same dream.
>
>
> On 5/19/20 4:26 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> > But how is this a study of /dreaming. /
>
> On 5/19/20 4:39 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> > Q: Why are not dreams, like any other experience, proper objects o
> study?
> > A:  Because, unlike other experiences, we report them after we have
> them.
> > Q: No, that can't be right.  There is no situation in which we actually
> report the experience precisely as we have it.  So, the difference between
> a dream and any other reportable experience is a matter of degree.
> > A: Oh, all right.  We can't study dreams because there is no way to
> observe you having the experience.
> > Q: Well, what if we take REM sleep as a proxy for dreaming.  Now we can
> observe you having the experience.
> > A:  Well, I suppose.  But you  can't observe the experience that I am
> having.
> > ... to be continued.
>
> --
> ☣ uǝlƃ
>
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-- 
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
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