[FRIAM] anonymity/deniability/ambiguity

[Marcus Daniels]

I notice now that when I make e-mails Glen-ready, that some mechanized editors advise that the text should be more direct, and strongly-worded.  (

On 5/21/20, 9:48 AM, "Friam on behalf of Steve Smith" <friam-bounces at redfish.com on behalf of sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

    I like this "turn of events" where the subject of the discussion is
    somewhat self-referential and is peeling away it's own veneers as it were.

    Regarding "false humility",  I find myself *avoiding* those qualifiers
    sometimes *out of respect* to my audience.   I feel like, in a group
    like this, that those qualifiers are painfully implicit, especially
    among regular contributors.

    For example, I don't read Frank as "aggressively authoritative" (or was
    it authoritarian) at all, but perhaps because I've spent a little time
    with him in person and recognize that in a long and interesting life, he
    has lots of direct or second order encounters with various "authorities"
    in different fields, who he can quote with ... ahem... "authority of
    personal experience".  (and I may be mischaracterizing this for Frank,
    so he may need to correct what I impute/impugne here).

    I believe we are generally agreed here that we don't trust "proof by
    authority" but most of us still defer to authority for a shared sense of
    what has gone before, what is generally accepted, from whence the
    language of a topic is rooted.  

    I think this extra level of "signalling" you refer to is deeply
    instinctual and helps to reinforce (for better AND worse)
    ingroup/outgroup structures...  which we tend to think of as *bad
    things* but in fact,  I believe that the self-other boundary is key to
    complex organization.   CHON molecules form lipid and protein and
    carbohydrate chains which then combine and/or fold into macromolecules
    which then self-organize into larger structures like cytoskeletal
    membrane, cell walls, etc. which continue to "stack" via self-other
    differentiation/aggregation on up in complexity.   I'm not sure how many
    identifiable layers deep of such stacking humans are (with the conscious
    mind as an emergent property of the hominid or mammalian or vertebrate
    neurology), but the self-other differentiation is right in the middle of
    it all.

    mumble,

     - Steve


    > Ha! Nice one. We have only the "apparently" qualifier to guide our decoder choice.
    >
    > I forget the phrase Jon used, but I thought "humility signalling" when he mentioned it and I described being accused of false humility (in a friendly way). By peppering one's assertions with "I think" and "in my opinion" and/or regularly denigrating oneself (all of which I do a lot), yet continuing to *act* arrogant and defending one's assertions to the grave, have we descended to playing some game of false humility? ... are we expected to pepper everything we say this way and purposefully hide our arrogance and self-centeredness?
    >
    > I honestly have no idea. I could easily be a raging narcissist who's *learned* to manipulate people by peppering my language with self-denigration and IMO qualifiers. Or (as it feels internally), I am actually scared to death that I'm a moron surrounded by super-intelligent beings and I'm just desparate to stay in the game. I seriously have no idea which is the case ... probably a little bit of both. 8^D
    >
    >
    > On 5/21/20 8:46 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
    >> Bendito Espinoza (Spanish version) apparently did not believe in the transcendent God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  Nor did he believe that men are constrained by the Ten Commandments*.  He was declared "herem", a very severe action.
    >> [...]
    >> Said without authoritatian motive.
    >


    -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. . ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
    FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
    Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
    un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
    archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
    FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/