[FRIAM] Metaphor [POSSIBLE DISTRACTON FROM]: privacy games

Thu May 28 20:56:27 EDT 2020

I'm not sure I follow all the different sticking points this conversation
has developed... but I'm gonna risk punch the tar baby anyway...

I'm not sure Glen's point about "xyz" gets us very far. Sure, you can call
anything you want by any label you want. I'm not sure anyone disputes that.
But after that there remain three-ish different issues, which I think Nick
tends to muddle:

1) The role of metaphor in communication.
2) The role of metaphor in thought.
3) The role of metaphor in science.

Glen's example doesn't get us very far in any of those conversations,
because it is an example, and literally any example is self-defeating in
these contexts.

The role of metaphor in communication: Glen want's us to understand that
there are many situation like the one he described. He doesn't literally
use "xyz" in all those cases, but it is like he has done that, in crucial
ways. He also isn't always referring to a "green thing in the distance",
but, again, it is like he has done that, in crucial ways. In order to
effectively communicate his idea, he offered a metaphor... because they
 make communication much easier.

The role of metaphor in thought: Does Glen inherently think that way? I
think the analysis would be similar.

The role of metaphor in science: I'm not sure where this aspect is in the
various conversations at the moment, but a particular strength of Nick's
analysis of metaphor illuminating its role in science - both for better and
for worse.  Scientific theories are metaphors that are meant to be taken
very seriously ("Natural selection", "A snake eating its tail", "Bent space
time", "The bystander effect", "Atomism", etc., etc.). We make the metaphor
because we see a similarity between two situations, and we intend that
metaphor to suggest other similarities that we have not witnessed. Because
it is a metaphor, we don't intend an exact match, so there are intended
non-similarities as well. The intended similarities are the things to be
investigated. Something goes awry if people start investigating the
non-similarities. For example, it would be silly if we had demanded Glen
produce an example of when he had used "xyz" in the past to refer
specifically to a "green thing in the distance". Glen didn't intend that
aspect of his metaphor to be held up to such scrutiny (at least I do not
think he intended it to be). Good metaphors function in common conversation
without the need to hammer out such details explicitly, and typically
without any intent to investigate the intended implication.

Did I punch the tar baby enough? Am I hopelessly stuck? Or did I possibly
help accomplish anything?

P.S. I am very committed to Nick's understanding of how to understand
metaphors, but abhor the notion that it is metaphor all the way down. There
were once people who had to literally toe a literal line, and now there are
people who metaphorically "toe the line", and anything that makes it seem
like we will lose that distinction is highly problematic. Don't know if
that's relevant, but since I've seen a few people in the thread talk about
"Nick/EricC" I thought I'd mention that crucial difference.
P.P.S. And a metaphorically "toe the line" might or might not be distinct
from whatever dysfunctional thing is happening when wherein someone is said
to "tow the line"... with the latter definitely being relevant to Glen's
comments about the arbitrariness it all. Is it still a functional metaphor
if someone writes "tow"?!? "Yes" in one sense, but obviously "no" in
another.

-----------
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Department of Justice - Personnel Psychologist
American University - Adjunct Instructor
<echarles at american.edu>

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 4:53 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
wrote:

> Yes, I second this.  The way Glen puts the point is exactly right.
>
> On May 28, 2020, at 11:14 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good, Glen.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, May 28, 2020, 7:50 AM uǝlƃ ☣ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'll try again to describe why constant talk of metaphors is distracting
>> nonsense, at least for me. When I use a word, that word is a variable bound
>> to some context. We can bind any string of letters to any subset of any
>> context. So, a string like "xyz" can be bound to "that green thing in the
>> distance". Even *after* you and Joe or whoever later come to call "that
>> green thing in the distance" by the string "tank", I can *still* call it an
>> "xyz". I can do this for decades. "xyz" need have no other binding for
>> which to "metaphorize". So, regardless of what *you* think when you read
>> the string "xyz", I'm not using a metaphor when I say "xyz". You may think
>> it's a metaphor until you're blue in the face. But I didn't use a metaphor.
>> >8^D
>>
>> For me, a "strawman" has always meant that 1 single thing: rhetorical bad
>> faith rewording. I've never used a straw man as a scare crow. I've never
>> used it to train in combat. I've never used it to burn in effigy. I've
>> never used it to mean anything but that one thing. So, therefore, it's not
>> a metaphor. It's a meaningless string of characters bound to that one thing.
>>
>> Sure, *you* can read whatever I write however you *want* to read what I
>> write. That's the very point of the
>> privacy-despite-the-"holographic"-principle threads. How you read it CAN BE
>> entirely unrelated to how I write it. When you *impute* metaphor status
>> into arbitrary strings you see on your screen, you are *inscribing* your
>> own understanding of the world *onto* the thing you're looking at. You are
>> *not* blank-slate, receiving a message.
>>
>> Now, if you listened empathetically, you might choose to *ask* the author
>> "Did you mean that as a metaphor?" You could even be a bit rude and
>> continue with "Or are you too stupid to know the history of that string of
>> characters?" This is a common thing. E.g. when someone uses a string of
>> characters they grew up with to innocently refer to, say, a marginalized
>> group, without *knowing* the marginalized group thinks that string of
>> characters is offensive. Like wearing a Washington Red Skins jersey. Or
>> when a 12 year old white kid sings along with some rap lyrics.
>>
>> You have options when you decode a string. It doesn't always need to be
>> metaphorical. Even if, deep down, you're a complete pedant and you
>> absolutely must point out that everything's always a metaphor, you CAN
>> suppress that need for a little while ... sometimes ... just sometimes ...
>> you have that power.
>>
>> So, no. Strawman is not a metaphor. If it helps you, I can stop using the
>> string "strawman" and use "xyz" for that fallacy from now on. Please avoid
>> the xyz fallacy.
>>
>> On 5/27/20 12:03 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>> > [...] “Strawman” is a metaphor, right? [...]
>> >
>> > The example of “strawman” is a wonderful example of a failure of a
>> metaphor at the first state.  We did not all get the same “image” when it
>> was first deployed.  That failure is instructive for me because it reminds
>> me that the familiar assertion that M is a metaphor for X is incomplete.
>> Explictly, or implicitly, there must always be a third argument.  For
>> 0bservor O, M is a metaphor for X.  In other words, we must be humble in
>> our use of metaphors.
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☣ uǝlƃ
>>
>> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. .
>> ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC>
>> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>
> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. .
> ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
>
> -- --- .-. . .-.. --- -.-. -.- ... -..-. .- .-. . -..-. - .... . -..-. .
> ... ... . -. - .. .- .-.. -..-. .-- --- .-. -.- . .-. ...
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20200528/e62f7673/attachment.html>