[FRIAM] Science Commits Suicide (yes, another trolling headline)

[David Eric Smith]

I agree, Gary,

I wasn’t at all speaking in a disingenuous code, about censoring or other.  I meant what I said, as I said it.  It happens that, as part of the general pattern of the world’s being set on fire around our ears, there seem to be explosions today about twitter and power-trolls etc., so it seems inescapable, in a post of the kind I wrote, to need to state explicitly that I am on the side of open expression by people who have demonstrated that they are indeed there as part of the support for a good community.  Dave can troll, and I can call bullshit on the rare occasions that there seems to be any reason to do so.

I fully appreciate that there is a lot of the merry pirate in Dave, and that he is an elegant and well-formed writer, and much more fun to read than I am.  I have followed several of his threads, and used material he has brought.  I would be sorry to lose that.

I also recognize that there are jerks in the world, and that there are power structures that give cover and a developmental scaffold to jerks, and that like any other power structure, social conventions around science can get coopted for that.  Like racism, that needs to be understood as a problem for everybody, or else we don’t feel the right weight of responsibility to correct it.  But if one really wants to be helpful, it is good to start to get specific and be a bit careful.

I think my sense of the discussion is well summed up in a link somebody sent me 
https://www.facebook.com/413132078795966/posts/2793699517405865/ <https://www.facebook.com/413132078795966/posts/2793699517405865/>
The list lives in the overlap of social community and real relations.  It’s okay for people to object to specific things they think are a problem; that’s part of the dynamically maintained community.

All best,

Eric


> On May 30, 2020, at 8:08 AM, Gary Schiltz <gary at naturesvisualarts.com> wrote:
> 
> Eric, I don't know either you or Dave West personally, and hope I don't fan the embers into flames. Some of Dave's posts certainly have a trolling tone. I agree that painting everyone in a group (in this case, scientists) with such a broad brush merits calling bullshit, but the posts haven't bothered me. As far as Friam involvement goes, I suspect that nobody has ever been banned for their posts, for which I'm happy. This is the most mature group of thinkers that I've ever had the pleasure to be a part. I admit that I only skim a lot of the philosophical ramblings, which are quite over my head, but I would miss anyone who has been part of the group.
> 
> On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 5:18 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu <mailto:desmith at santafe.edu>> wrote:
> Dave,
> 
> > On May 30, 2020, at 12:32 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm <mailto:profwest at fastmail.fm>> wrote:
> > 
> > Science suffers from a similar problem. Making assertions as if they were unalloyed accurate and True Facts when they know that the models, the assumptions, the data (lack of) generate more ambiguity and conclude little more than probabilities. And they constantly change. But Science remains unable to admit to error or ambiguity — generating a facade that is just as false as the "We are always in the right" facade of police departments.
> 
> That’s a lot of bullshit.
> 
> It is a general claim about the actions of an encompassing set of people.  I have a large set of people against whom I can test that claim, and it is about as opposite from factual accuracy as I know how to get in the world of human behavior.
> 
> You are, of course, free to believe whatever serves your own needs, and I continue to support your right to do it unmolested.  You are even free to troll up to whatever limits the board moderators consider appropriate, and I can’t imagine the above comes anywhere near infringing on a limit of decency.
> 
> However, if you are trolling in a public place, it is reasonable for someone else to flag the trolling as bullshit.
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
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