[FRIAM] aftermath

[Gillian Densmore]

you are bad bad bad bad man Codi lol 😂 quite Angular you have their! and a
fantastic React-tion. Lol thank you thank you I have a PHP in puns!

On Tue, Nov 24, 2020 at 2:27 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:

>
> > Naaaa. I think you have a severely biased understanding of
> libertarianism. To be fair, it's not your fault. A core principle of
> libertarianism is to argue *for* a state when a state is *necessary*. This
> is why they're not anarchists. Any reasonable libertarian will willingly
> argue, and accept if argued well enough, the need for state run programs,
> including pro-social ones like education and health care.
> >
> > The trick is you have to separate the actual libertarians from the ones
> who *call* themselves "libertarians". And then you have to argue patiently,
> with data, over and over again, until they finally see the need for the
> state in that context. It's exhausting and I don't blame you if you usually
> give up before reaching that point.
> > thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
> >> Well, except the last part.  In the L. O., don't we have to fling all
> the saved  money out of the top of the Washington Moneyment and watch all
> the people kill each other groveling for it?
>
> Nick -
>
> You have well characterized a common (and well earned) caricature of
> (L)ibertarianism with the feature that watching the "sheeple" tear one
> another part in their ignorant greed and fear is a key feature of their
> brand.   The Trumpist badge-of-honor to "own the Libs" is an even uglier
> variation.  Hillary's gaffe that exposed the "despicablizing" of anyone
> who would support Trump (or who would not support her?) is yet another
> variation.
>
> Glen -
>
> I acknowledge your distinction between Libertarian(tm)s and the more
> pure-to-conception version (though I don't know any of the latter except
> from "just-so" anecdotes told mostly by the former who don't realize how
> transparent they are).  I'm also reminded of the They Might Be Giants
> verse in a song: "I know politics bore you, you and your racist
> friend"...   it takes on more significance every time I try to speak in
> depth with a crypto-racist (or crypto-classist, or crypto- anythingist)
> who uses one thing to obscure another thing that prevents/excusing them
> from engaging in a meaningful/thoughtful conversation/thoughts.   Maybe,
> as you say, it just takes more patience and data, even with them?
>
> All -
>
> I've become a fan of Jim Scott's view of things as described in his "The
> Art of not being Governed" which I would say distinguishes itself from
> Anarchism in the sense of simply doing what it takes to not (need to) be
> (G)overned (thus "Art" vs "Trick" in the title).    SteveG and I have
> talked of late around the dual-use of the term; "govern" and it's cousin
> "regulate" in the domains of systems (complex, Complex, and nominally
> neither) vs in politics and statecraft.  The former being a "system" for
> seeking the right/opportunity/power to do the latter, and the latter
> being (on a good day) the role of designing/maintaining governance
> systems which allow/guide/constrain human systems (socioeconomic) to
> operate efficiently and humanely (according to some set of values of
> what is humane and what features are to be measured and optimized?).
>
> Many -
>
> This "August Body" is one of the few places where I find enough richness
> and nuance FOR these discussions to unfold.   I don't want to be (too
> much) like Nick wishing "we" were different (I'm alluding to his
> occasional Jonesing on being able to distill these threads into proper
> scientific papers), but I often feel that we bring up (potentially) rich
> topics and then put them to away before we've really put them through
> their full paces.   I am guilty, of course, of both sins of (c)ommission
> in my own tangenting (never really feels that to me when I do it, but
> recognize how it must when it is pointed out... "dookey-in-the-fan"
> style) and witholding (half my missives don't even get saved in a
> "drafts" folder) and perhaps my lack of focus leading to a well (enough)
> crafted argument to make it past my own Censor Homonculus and obviously
> relevant in it's tangential content/style to make it past everyone
> else's TLDR censors.   (TTDR, more to the point?)
>
> Few -
>
> I can't think of a thing I can say here, believing that only a few would
> care... but maybe those reading this got past the TL/TT DR censors are
> the canonical "Few"... and some of you may just be reading out of morbid
> fascination with "where is THIS tangent going?".    Perhaps the thing I
> am struggling with is that we seem to be coming out of the other end of
> a "Long Dark Teatime of the Soul" (nod to Douglas Adams) with Trump
> about to be frog-marched out of the Whitehouse and as we lick (or
> staunch or splint or debrade or detox) our wounds and try to stand up
> and wobble forward with conviction, away from the
> take-a-dump-with-trump-in-the-dumpster fire that was the last 4+ ( start
> counting with Trump's primary win) years, toward *what*?    Does a
> Biden-Harris/Democrat term give us the opening to take stock and make
> some hay while the sun is shining?  Or are our politicians (and selves)
> stuck in an obstructionist contrarianism that only allows us to do
> (lame) preventative and remedial things while we hold our breath waiting
> for the "other shoe to fall"?  I recently heard a commentator (late
> night comedian) make the very apt point that Trump started a grievance
> campaign against himself when he *won* (electoral college) in 2016, so
> whatever he does "next" will be nothing more than a continuation of
> that.   I felt that the Republican controlled congress (esp. Senate) has
> been unable to do anything *but* obstruction in many terms now.  Maybe,
> in the sense of regulatory feedback, that is the most they *can* do
> right now?   Ride the brakes, drag the feet, unfurl the kite tail a
> little longer?   Those *can* be powerfully stabilizing forces on the
> edge of chaos.
>
> Ramble,
>
> - Steve
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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