[FRIAM] ideas are lies
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Mon Sep 28 18:54:10 EDT 2020
https://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/WIh-Gk1rAQfagUkW9j9Vfb0_18xPkJI9b1Ci41loQI3r9dukFTKHgoziO3lN0wOTZC0Ljzi_99okKnJguPbjqM1MsxcKNSZXjsr0sqZuILrrSGtAx5iavd5wxkfRdqOXYXQB=s0-d-e1-ft#https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5f72193f672e2c76463652e6/1:1/w_800/A24713.jpg
Do you have to have a Google account to see that?
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:35 PM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
> Eric -
>
> Great "wander" from the main thread... Your "wander" through the
> rhetoric of Adam Smith and the abuses of the *ideal* of a free market leads
> me to (re) offer up the tome written by Tomas Bjorkman: "The World we
> Create: From God To Market" <http://www.tomas-bjorkman.com/#books>.
>
> As a young man I was seduced by the illusions implicit in the "card
> carrying Libertarian" mode. I was perhaps myself, seduced by the minor
> (or at least obscured) edge the Libertarian rhetoric seems to give to those
> with some kind of advantage, the opportunity (inevitability?) to parlay
> that into dominance. Coming out of childhood where my parents, older
> sibling, teachers, older classmates, bosses, authorities, etc. all had a
> range of advantage up to complete dominance over my life, I was focused a
> bit more on wiggling out from under those thumbs than I was perhaps aware
> that *I* was going to become someone else's thumb, and in fact very likely
> already was, merely by being a member of varied overlapping communities of
> privilege. Some of the conversations here, including what I interpret
> from Glen (at least) and others having gone through some of those illusions
> and come out the other side, have helped me understand how "yet more" I was
> seduced by those idea(l)s and continue to benefit from them
> unconsciously. For example, as I consider myself part of the "dominated"
> 99% by the "dominating" 1% (wealth) in our culture, I have to recognize
> that I am at least part of the dominating 10% (wealth, military, political)
> in the world over the 90% (each of us can pick our own ratio).
>
> I also appreciate your analysis of "originalism", as I have lived under
> the specter of the differences between letter and spirit or letter and
> intent of various laws/rules/etc. I eventually (again, some help from
> some of the discussions here) had to acknowledge (more and more) that
> simply discarding the letter *for* the intent/spirit has risks and
> challenges in the same way as blindly (or belligerently?) following the
> letter can. I regretfully agree that the upcoming Senate hearings to
> consider (rubber-stamp?) confirmation of ACB, *might* (but won't) offer a
> forum to discuss publicly the larger issues of how the three branches of
> government were considered to provide checks and balances to runaway
> accumulations of power, at least in our political and governance systems.
>
> My own personal "answer" to the lack of "an algorithm to track
> externalities" is to scope my transactions more and more local, and
> re/up-cycle As of a month ago, I only eat eggs layed in my own back
> yard. When I have my farming shit together, I mostly only eat vegetables
> (including beans and dried corn and squash) grown on the land near my home,
> with water pumped from the aquifer underneath my home by (if I had my
> solar/wind shit together better) energy obtained from the sun/wind flux in
> my immediate environs. I can virtue-signal in concentric rings out from
> there to include the wood I burn for supplemental heat to come from the
> trees growing nearby, and the car I drive (up to 40mi RT/day) being
> electrified by the same solar flux as the water pumped).
>
> The point isn't to (just) virtue signal but to experiment with how much I
> *really* need to ask people all over the world to defer to my
> financial/military/political dominance (laundered through my government and
> the huge corporations it enables) and first-world privilege squanderage.
> I still regularly eat avocados shipped (with fossil fuels) 1000 miles or
> more, often from Mexico and drink coffee shipped similar differences and
> cultivated/picked by people making a tiny fraction of what I live on while
> very wealthy middle-persons (or corporations) get wealthier from their
> labor (and likely what was formerly their ancestor's landscape) and my
> excess spending power. The computer (12 year old macbook pro) I type on
> definitely started life as a pure externality as did the stupid-big battery
> in my (already used-up by the former owner's perspective) electric car (did
> that lithium come from Mongolia, or just the Neodymium in the
> motor-generators?), and the cement in the mortar I'm using to face the
> stem-wall (and the concrete block OF the stem wall) of my sunroom is
> another externality (in material AND energy) I have no trouble (usually)
> treating as "no big deal". And I still ask my UPS/FedEx/USPS driver to
> haul her 10,000 GVW delivery vehicle down my lane to my house to idle while
> she unloads whatever bit of electronic/digital junk I thought I needed
> while browsing Amazon/aliExpress/NewEgg/??? last week, albeit only once a
> week (using Amazon Day, etc.). I don't know *where* the bitumen in the
> asphalt of the highway those trucks and I speed down (all electric!!!)
> every day or so comes from, or how it gets there. There are no end of the
> externalities to ignore.
>
> I'm convinced that if the global industrial-transportation system doesn't
> collapse out from under us, only the most rabid of freegans can even begin
> to pretend that their externalities are strictly local. My personal
> attempts to contract in this way may be entirely ideosyncratic and thin
> unto empty, but every time I try to recognize who and what I'm harming,
> where, I get a brief glimpse of a local optimization I *can* do, and listen
> for the screams of those who have to absorb them.
>
> This might provide a fair segue back into the questions of the kinds of
> optimization that free markets might offer: *Economies of Scale*,
> *Synergy* amongst qualitatively different goods/services, and the
> *Annealing* that the push-and-shove of competitive markets *can*
> provide. Are these real things, or just tricks and illusions the(we?)
> power/wealth mongers caste to keep the rest of us(them?) feeding their
> greed? The thought of an algorithm (facilitated how?) to help keep track
> of if/when/where/how these things come to play and where they are just an
> obfuscation to exploiting Gaia and her (human and other animal) children.
>
> - Steve
> On 9/28/20 11:17 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
>
> Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.
>
> I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude. I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.
>
> A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words. Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.
>
> For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse. Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations. Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.) The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest. Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”. Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.
>
> That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.
>
> I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same. One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade. As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc. Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited. Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending. In context, they make a lot of sense. Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.
>
> I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.
>
> By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person. I can believe that. Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.
>
> However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?
>
> I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation. I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).
>
> But then how does that work? There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788. So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it? I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.
>
> And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him. But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.
>
> Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data): What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?
>
> Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.
>
> 1. For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
> 2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority. The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
> 3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year. Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law. I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich. There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election. MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
> 4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
> 5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal. Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
> 6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control. What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.
>
> So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.
>
> Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame. Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.
>
> I guess that wandered off the strict thread.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <gepropella at gmail.com> <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>
> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>
> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>
>
> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>
> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>
> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control. Which is nonsense.
>
> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>
> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making. In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>
> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>
> ---- Pat
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com <mailto:eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> <eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>
> Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>
> * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
> * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
> * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
> * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
> * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
> * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
> * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
> * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
> * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
> * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
> *
>
> The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life. The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>
> * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>
> Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper. (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
> how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>
>
> Eric C
> <mailto:echarles at american.edu> <echarles at american.edu>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
> "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
> --
> glen ⛧
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,KGzu2APwbRTafgbyuDendLu2FlO7a7iPaI-2HeDHn6NdQPs16C_DfFYpEy0i8RZUva6WJ7kViY_MqMK0yvSedxvfyo49921ta9IJPsq5ngJLjME0bS-aVu4,&typo=1> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,KGzu2APwbRTafgbyuDendLu2FlO7a7iPaI-2HeDHn6NdQPs16C_DfFYpEy0i8RZUva6WJ7kViY_MqMK0yvSedxvfyo49921ta9IJPsq5ngJLjME0bS-aVu4,&typo=1>
> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,LvXwopHMaxW94USa-apUEe2BCCuXO4GLm60UzqExS9H-4VzxMkLpOqH9_tNOZIXnu3RdsDNlx2vRGbdqehIlT9ujWcN-XlfiDOYRzmBGzVsO&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,KgYk_nt2N2JXaYLtuV9964RM6BZVeZF7orcPxgjF7uD6HCP1D6tQCIOMLdj2IlUVWWwot6vsQ_mno420RHS7wjHZ8eJwhVS1SocjaELEA145jmnNXSy4zQ,,&typo=1
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,BtXiikeFFnvUvkzxt5_XgQYZ_7Rp1xaTxE770BDoILHHW5w-OCcxAXdD99pg_bgDqpbj4Ma5NpZk1q9-WkcCVM86-1yY1B8VPCkSmIv_rV-8MYw,&typo=1> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,BtXiikeFFnvUvkzxt5_XgQYZ_7Rp1xaTxE770BDoILHHW5w-OCcxAXdD99pg_bgDqpbj4Ma5NpZk1q9-WkcCVM86-1yY1B8VPCkSmIv_rV-8MYw,&typo=1>
> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,KmZpy-Z04yp2LD4Rviyza0kZsG_PaO08Jy_HwG2M7kA7OvqDwcMcEemASY84rBH-IwgZGLjpRQUcfKwQs8RcYk7cpKmG9fveOgQFXJoJ&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,1SflVgqAR21wXioXL4OP2Ku_EB0S4Gw8JY0Kx_09hP8wWZcx9581bjkbPD8frsQ8R6Bm94bwyJkPGB5VgvAMrOl6CyTRtpUyo-BJoionpCvthycwWu5Togk0&typo=1
>
>
>
> --
> The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, please send an email to patrick.reilly at ipsociety.net <mailto:patrick.reilly at ipsociety.net> <patrick.reilly at ipsociety.net>.
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,8HxwR5TfpAHdrZ9zW4gHL0YL2NNUR3np5sGRR8NmDIIwgl_JSrs07ZbM01Api_spDKAsj0MxcYusBYM5HEoEwpKSia2Soirl9t48ApztlEbZ&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,3Nr2gLeFcNTTDygx7K9fHe-R-EBEv1kvLwUtrQNEz9qsjAUYLkmklMMv2xggTCtRf3DI1_TRIGMNqkIiYRjqI2l3lR8MEFby5wD-o7KA4hM1&typo=1
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,s94HZm4FBlutY5QQnOUtWVaTkL44uf-jQKyvh_1qQEp21vBQEdUb94GcO25s_mD1ykk_pRBnSeFtyGYxt8XrJjBFZzxOyNkmWRazQHmIEQnKxk4wPUs,&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,1XgHsBPh3R2GYxOxsKSPhofjYSNUdB0RelCmVp0ST8xFKC28Wns24fdbKwF2sS4I8fvzSa-_6SsKMg3hZCtcEoVapxgU_jeGW6WdiDvB&typo=1
>
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe <http://bit.ly/virtualfriamun/subscribe> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20200928/4a8b843c/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list