[FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

Thu Aug 26 10:12:34 EDT 2021

Insurers to the rescue?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08/covid-costs-billions-so-delta-to-charge-unvaxxed-airline-workers-200-month/

On Aug 26, 2021, at 2:13 AM, Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

Thanks for the reply Sarbajit, so what you're saying is the situation is much worse in India than what the official numbers indicate.

Pieter

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 10:48, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com<mailto:sroy.mb at gmail.com>> wrote:
I can give you some more context citing my personal experience

I stay in a spacious (for India) gated-off apartment complex in New Delhi, with 90 apartments and about 400 residents. About 25% of the apartments have retired doctors from India's premier hospitals, and we're mostly educated professionals well clued in to take precautions..

In the first COVID wave  which peaked in Sept 2020 we had 2 infections and no deaths. In the second wave which peaked in May 2021, we had about 75 known infections (of which 25 needed hospitalization) and 8 COVID deaths in my apartment complex alone. Similar numbers happened in the surrounding apartment complexes. My father-in-law who stays in a similar apartment complex a mile away was hospitalised for 10 days with COVID this May at the peak but luckily pulled through at age 82 years. He only got a hospital bed because he was Indian Army while other patients were being turned away in droves before my eyes.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 1:56 PM Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com<mailto:sroy.mb at gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter

The official statistics for India are quite (grossly) inaccurate. We can conservatively multiply the number of infections by x10 and the number of deaths by x3.
While the statistics are comparatively better maintained in the urban areas, in the rural areas there is massive under-reporting and people were dying like flies.
There is inadequate testing capacity and health infrastructure in the rural areas and we estimate the death rate at between 6% to 12% of the population in certain states.

My own uncle, a retired Indian Army doctor aged about 81 years, was the only doctor left for a radius of 100 km in a densely populated state because the regular doctors had either fled or died of COVID. He expired 2 months ago, of COVID, while still in the saddle attending patients.

Sarbajit

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:31 PM Pieter Steenekamp <pieters at randcontrols.co.za<mailto:pieters at randcontrols.co.za>> wrote:
Sarbajit,

When covid started I was very worried about India with it's high population density. But according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries the deaths/1M population in India is 313. In the USA, for example, the figure is 1950 deaths/1M population.

Further, according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/india/ India seems to be dodging the delta variant, because the daily new cases has been dropping since May and seems to be staying low.

My point is, India seems to be doing relatively less bad than many other countries.

Then, there seems to be relatively high prophylactic and early treatment use of ivermectin in India.
Refer to:
https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/lucknow/uttar-pradesh-government-says-ivermectin-helped-to-keep-deaths-low-7311786/
https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2021/05/11/indian-state-will-offer-ivermectin-to-entire-adult-population---even-as-who-warns-against-its-use-as-covid-19-treatment/?sh=18acd8956d9f
https://covid19criticalcare.com/ivermectin-in-covid-19/epidemiologic-analyses-on-covid19-and-ivermectin/
https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/columnists/indias-ivermectin-blackout---part-iii-the-lesson-of-kerala/article_ccecb97e-044e-11ec-9112-2b31ae87887a.html

I'd like to have your views on this. Is there a possible causal link between the use of ivermectin and low new covid infections in India?

Pieter

On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 at 04:42, Sarbajit Roy <sroy.mb at gmail.com<mailto:sroy.mb at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi

I would like to give you an "Asian" (perhaps culturally distasteful) perspective on this from India.

India has (officially) the 2nd highest number of COVID-19 infections and deaths after the USA.

However, within India, there is a small class of people, like me, called Adi Brahmins .. it's a Hindu caste,  who don't wear masks or take clinically unproven or untested vaccinations, mainly because we continually practice an ancient non-contact system known as UNTOUCHABILITY. Since Brahmins are traditionally the scientific / intellectual elite of India, we have known about virii, fomites, their modes of transmission, and how they cause infection and disease for centuries and we knew this empirically even before microscopes were invented.

The rules and concepts of untouchability are drilled into Brahmin children from infancy, and we practice it scrupulously even if it is banned by law in India. And it's not as if we dont believe in Western medicine systems or science, I was drilled by my grandfather who was the Director General of India's Armed Forces ( .. aka Surgeon General of India), to the extent that even the metal cutlery at his dining table was "autoclaved" before we used them.

The people who are contracting and dying of COVID in India are the ones who are fated to do so because of their own foolishness and ignorance, and also because India's government wanted them to die. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57005563

Sarbajit Roy
New Delhi, India

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 4:31 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com<mailto:gil.densmore at gmail.com>> wrote:
Pieter: YES! thats what I was trying to ask. Personally I think the science and tech around Vaccinations just rocks. On the human side: It is amazingly cool what people can do what we decide to do so.
you bring up a good point! I watched youtube videos from people that made the vaccines. LOL I did need to try to ask for a translation on what it meant to map the genetics. RNA. mRNA.  And when I learned how safe the vaccine was. Then I decided I couldn't get in line fast enough. It sounds like that's the opposite what some people are doing. It sounds like the hear: this was made using new medical technology, that hasn't neneded to be tested outside of labs until now. So they basically heard Fear And Doubt. Which is a shame.

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:56 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
They aren't under a mandate to have sufficient capacity, or they'd have sufficient capacity.   Through a triage process they can prioritize.   It must happen already, even if it isn't legal.  Oh, the local drug addict is here again.  That guy is probably not #1 for the attention of the doctors.  If enough big organizations like hospitals, grocery stores, etc. simply refuse to patronize people without evidence of vaccination, there doesn't need to be a mandate.   And it isn't just ERs, there are people getting allergy shots, getting physical therapy, eyeglasses adjusted, etc.  No shirt, no shoes, no vaccination, no service.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 10:47 AM
To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side

That's just nonsense. By the time you're at the ER, the vaccine is largely irrelevant. Plus, when some 18 year old kid comes in unconscious with a gunshot wound, it's difficult to ask her if she's been vaccinated or not.

Anyway, most large hospitals are under a mandate to treat whoever walks in the door, even if they don't have insurance. To make the change you suggest would require major legislative effort and, perhaps, re-architect the laws that govern public medicine. You're not gonna do that anytime soon.

Taking a look at this site: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours
it seems the ratio of covid patients is actually lower than I thought. The actual problem is insufficient buffer capacity, not the surge in covid patients. The covid patients are simply demonstrating the problem.

On 8/25/21 9:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Will you consent to a vaccine?
>
> Yes:  You get treatment for your non-COVID condition.  No:  Get lost.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:53 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>
> Because the majority of the patients in the ERs are not covid patients. (Last I heard the percentages were around 60-70% are non-covid. But I'm sure it's location dependent.) They're regular people with regular problems, many of whom delayed medical treatments for a year due to lockdowns. We did a little too much "just in time" logistical planning with our hospitals and this fairly tiny bump is demonstrating that our buffer wasn't high enough.
>
> The smart thing to do is increase capacity, correct the buffer size, and take care of both covid patients and regular people.
>
>
> On 8/25/21 9:33 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Why should we increase the capacity of the hospitals?  Just don't let them in.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2021 9:25 AM
>> To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] On the: RLY!? side
>>
>> Well, only if you don't make a big stink out of it. If it's a normal, everyday thing, yeah sure. But if it's some litmus test for who's with us or who's against us, then they're much less willing to submit to such tests.
>>
>> You see this in spades w.r.t. to the protests. In Portland, they antifa are rigorous about staging counter protests, which makes the fascists dig in and be more committed to protesting, which makes the antifa more committed, ad infinitum. Here in Olympia, it's mostly just the fascists out there protesting mask and vaccine mandates. (Yes, irony is dead.) But as a result, they're anticlimactic and peter out pretty comfortably.
>>
>> Along the same lines of "don't feed the troll", if we focused our attention on increasing the capacities of hospitals rather than brow beating the anti-vaxers, I suspect the vax rate would climb steadily and the reactionary tendencies of the anti-vaxers would abate.
>>
>>
>> On 8/25/21 9:09 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>> These same people are willing to submit to an employer's drug tests.

--
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