[FRIAM] the power of metaphor.

Thu Jan 7 22:12:30 EST 2021

I am anticipating how I would feel if I saw Trump when he is desperately
afraid as he suffers during his final illness and cries that it is unfair
that he has to die given how rich, talented ... whatever... he is.  Will I
remember how much I detested him?  Or would I feel sad for him.  The latter
involves what I mean by "empathy".

I say "would" rather that "will" because I doubt that I will be aware of
his suffering.  After all, I am older than he is.  I am thinner however.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 7:52 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> Frank, you make it sound like empathy is as delicate as reaching a
> grandparent in a séance.   To me it is like anticipating a melody.   Once I
> know how it goes I don’t need to keep listening to it.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:58 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> One of the senior psychoanalysts in Pittsburgh once said to my wife that
> nothing is sadder than the last act of a narcissist.
>
>
>
> "Act" as a metaphor for part of a play.  I will be interested to learn
> whether I will have empathy for Trump during his last act.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, 3:40 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
> The feeling must at least be bounded – it is simulated and controlled.
> One is trying to get the upper hand.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 2:36 PM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> It states that making a connection by showing the target empathy is a
> great way to get past defenses and obtain more credible information than
> torture — and it said this long before CIA idiots decided that
> waterboarding was the way to go.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2021, at 1:21 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> I wonder what the cia handbook says about empathy during interrogation.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 1:41 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> If the CIA builds up a dossier on the foibles of a foreign leader and
> possible ways to manipulate that leader, I would not call that empathy.
> Can one get in the skin of another without feeling their pain or validating
> it?   I think one certainly can, and that it can be better to do that in
> many situations.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:29 AM
>
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> Does seeing imply visual vulnerability?  Hearing imply auditory
> vulnerability?  Well, I suppose.  Any time we make ourselves open to
> information, I suppose we are in some sense vulnerable.  But aren’t we also
> impowered?  Feelings only make one vulnerable if one fails to process them.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 12:03 PM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> A problem with empathy is that it typically understood to be a
> “feeling”.   Feeling means offering vulnerability.    The class of people
> we are discussing should not be offered that.   They should be shown, in a
> calm and steady manner, to a bland government bus after the empathy value
> is firmly in the off position.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:51 AM
>
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> Well, I hate to shortcut a perfectly good argument, but I think, now, we
> agree.  If you concede that empathy is a form of perception whose value as
> information cannot be denied, I can readily agree that so focusing on one’s
> empathy as to avoid all other sources of information is dangerous and
> stupid  *and cloying. *
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:39 AM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> Sure, I use my eyes and visual cortex to judge the speed of an oncoming
> car.   But I shouldn’t model that last fractions of a second before impact
> in luxurious detail.  That’s suicidal.  I should step on the brakes or the
> gas to avoid the collision.   That’s what all this empathy talk strikes me
> as – giving dangerous people so many mental cycles that they do collide
> into you.    Wringing ones hands before victimization is complete.  No,
> take the mental cycles and develop some tactics and strategy for preventing
> these people from being dangerous.
>
>
>
> I only mention Ted Cruz because he seems a slightly interesting person, in
> a sort of satanic way.   Most of the others are mad dogs as far as I am
> concerned.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:30 AM
>
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> Marcus,
>
>
>
> You could not have written what you wrote here, with it’s searing
> pointedness, without empathy.  Empathy is not an ideology; is an organ of
> perception.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 11:05 AM
>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> The prior reflections by Glen on young adulthood makes me wonder about
> Ted’s.   Was there a particular point at which he decided to be a public
> person and that he realized he could find an angle in any situation?   Did
> he anticipate what his life would become, or did he just fall into it?
> Sometimes it seems like he doesn’t even enjoy it.   It seems there is no
> objective distance he gets from his nihilism.  There’s just always the next
> thing he has to do.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 7, 2021 8:53 AM
>
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam at redfish.com>
>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] the power of metaphor.
>
>
>
> Bret Stephens, a NYT columnist, described Ted Cruz as “a serpent covered
> in Vaseline” .  Will I ever get that image out of my head?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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