[FRIAM] incitement

Tue Jan 19 13:49:10 EST 2021

I think this is right, Nick, and think I have seen lawyers comment just to this effect either in print or on video.

One need not have committed a criminal offense to be held to have committed a “high crime”.

Eric

> On Jan 19, 2021, at 1:46 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think of "high" crimes and misdemeanors as those that only a person of lofty office can commit.  So violation of an oath of "high" office is a High Crime.  I don't know if that interpretation has any basis in history.  But the plain text of the constitution seems to suggest it: "...bribery and OTHER high crimes and misdemeanors..."  So, I see the impeachment passage in the constitution as setting out vulnerabilities of high office in addition to those that ordinary citizens endure. 
>  
> n
>  
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
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>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 12:09 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] incitement
>  
> It would certainly hit Benjamin Franklin's assertion that impeachment was for those times when the Executive "rendered himself obnoxious" or Hamilton's "those offences which proceed from the misconduct of men, or in other words, from the abuse or violation of some public trust. They are of a nature which may with peculiar propriety be denominated POLITICAL, as they relate chiefly to injuries done immediately to the society itself."
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2021 9:58 AM
> To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] incitement
>  
> I suppose all 3 positions (Marcus, Eric, and Nick) argue that impeachment isn't really a legal proceeding, but a democratic one ... representative democracy, however far removed. I've often argued that it's reasonable that lawyers be elected to Congress. The purpose of Congress is argumentation. And lawyers are the closest we have to professional arguers. But, I suppose I'm changing my mind about that. Congress might be legislative, but it's not about arguing (at least not anymore). Their "debates" seem mostly granstanding. And the "deals" that turn into legislation are done more by what looks like beating the pavement ... lots of "arguing" in semi-private, I guess. But not in the sense of rational debate and consideration of consequences. That all happens in the courts.
>  
> So we go back to populism. It strikes me as a populist sentiment that Trump is guilty of incitement (and populist sentiment that he's an "outsider" "fighting the deep state"). And I'm left with the question: What's the difference between democracy and populism? Yeah, I know populism is cartooned as requiring a belief in the "corrupt elite". But is democracy really only a well-formed populism?
>  
> If it's not the *letter* of some law that convicts or acquits Trump, then what method should be used? "My noisiest constituents want me to [convict|acquit]"?
>  
> On 1/19/21 8:29 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I am concerned that the present article of impeachment relies on the concept of incitement, which has, I am told, a very specific and narrow definition in federal law.  Now I recognize that violation of federal law is not required for impeachment.  However, I would hope that, just to be sure, we would add the charges of “reckless disregard” during the Ellipse speech and "dereliction of duty to protect” during the later stages of the riot itself.  Neither charge requires the establishment of criminal intent.  It is as if he drove down a crowded walking street at high speed and then failed to stop to give aid when he heard a bunch of thumps on his fenders.  Sure he was late for a dentist appointment; what difference does that make?
>  
> On 1/19/21 8:21 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
> > That does raise a certain question of law, however (not goal, just method and framing).  If you don’t plan ahead for destruction because you are unconcerned whether actions you take might cause it, it seems that shouldn’t be _less_ of a wrongdoing than having incited intentionally.  Since the Richie Ramirez thing appears to be back in the pop consciousness just now (I remember the evening news cycle when I was a boy and that was all going down), we can probably say there is precedent that sociopaths don’t get indemnity.
> > 
> >> On Jan 19, 2021, at 11:10 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> That his lack of caution arises from stupidity as much as it does from malice shouldn't give him any relief. 
>  
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