[FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Mon Nov 29 14:04:57 EST 2021
Steve, Is there any difference between a sequential dynamic system and a causal system, or is the former a species of the latter?
Just trying to get the words straight.
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2021 10:52 AM
To: friam at redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
All of this discussion seems to be framed conveniently (for CS/modeling types) as Sequential Dynamical Systems:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequential_dynamical_system
On 11/28/21 8:49 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Can’t the delay be in arbitrarily-small discretized units (e.g. picoseconds) if needed?
On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:15 PM, Frank Wimberly <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
By the way an example of a cycle with no delay, unless time isn't continuous, is a pair of ladders leaning against each other so that neither falls. That violates assumptions of our causal discovery algorithms.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:57 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> > wrote:
An element of a (very short) cycle. Note that there has to be a delay.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 7:44 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:
Frank,
In your lingo, what is an effect called that feeds back on its cause?
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 7:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
Yes, for example.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 6:06 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
I guess you mean A(t=0)->B(t=1), B(t=1)->A(t=2), not B(t=1)->A(t=0)
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:46 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
I did a number of experiments in the use of causal learning methods to infer genetic regulatory networks using actual and simulated data. Those networks have loops of a variety of lengths. References available upon request.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sun, Nov 28, 2021, 4:41 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
I just don't see how that is a "loop" except that repeated application of such a matrix could lead to oscillation. It sounded like somehow causality was violated and not just obscured.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2021 3:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The epiphenomenality relation
Right, high dimension. More important than the matrix being large is that it has non-zero cross terms.
On November 28, 2021 8:42:37 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
>The operators are large (in the sense of a matrix) whether or not they are intended to be?
>
>> On Nov 28, 2021, at 6:20 AM, ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> > wrote:
>>
>> Any of the evolutionary operators across scales, from energy exchange at the finest to ecosystem reengineering at the coarsest.
>>
>>> On November 27, 2021 7:33:15 AM PST, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> > wrote:
>>> I’ve heard these words from you Glen, but I have no idea what these loops are or what you might be talking about.
>>>
--
glen ⛧
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