[FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Wed Oct 20 09:02:39 EDT 2021
By the way, Nick, blackboard systems like Hearsay had levels and causation
among levels.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 6:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Now *that* sounds like s blackboard system.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Oct 20, 2021, 12:15 AM Jochen Fromm <jofr at cas-group.net> wrote:
>
>> Yes. Stigmergy always reminds me of ants looking for food using pheromone
>> trails. The classic swarm intelligence example described in the book of
>> Eric Bonabeau, Guy Theraulaz and Marco Dorigo. In this case stigmergy can
>> be considered as a phenomenon where agents collectively use the *environment
>> as a shared memory *(the pheromone is stored in the environment and it
>> contains the memory where to find the food source). Good point! I guess
>> Russ will like this point of view.
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: ⛧ glen <gepropella at gmail.com>
>> Date: 10/20/21 07:16 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>>
>> But it's a specific kind of memory: a) shared and b) abused or misused.
>> There should be a decoupling of the objectives of the writer from the
>> objectives of the reader. A good example is a hermit crab using a soup can
>> as its shell. Or an urban kid mistaking modern bananas for "natural" food.
>>
>> The "indirectness" in the definition obscures some nuance that needs some
>> attention.
>>
>> On October 19, 2021 8:56:28 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> wrote:
>> >I don’t actually get what is interesting about the term. In computer
>> science it would be a “blackboard system” or simply “memory”.
>> >
>> >From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
>> >Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 8:34 PM
>> >To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> >Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>> >
>> >Ugh. I was making fun of myself. If everything is stigmergy then the
>> word has no interesting use.
>> >
>> > I am in danger of confusing it with niche construction. The concept
>> offers an alternative to Lamarckian mechanisms for an organism to direct
>> its own evolution. It's like the inheritance of acquired environments. I
>> think of it as including such phenomena as squirrels and jays putting
>> acorns in the ground and thus providing an environment rich with food for
>> the winter and also, perhaps, in the very long run, future oak trees. In
>> some sense, the environment that selects the organism is an environment
>> that is selected by the organism.
>> >
>> >I think the word does have a use, but only if we distinguish between
>> things left behind that positively affect those that follow. To my
>> surprise, the word is apparently of recent origin having been specifically
>> invented to apply to ant pheromone trails in the fifties. So, I suppose we
>> might narrow it's meaning to objects left to convey information and leave
>> niche construction to apply to objects that provide shelter, nutrition or
>> other benefits to the finder, eg., acorns, beaver dams,
>> >
>> >Thanks for pitching in, everybody. You have helped to drive me out of
>> my post travel lassitude.
>> >
>> >Nick
>> >
>> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 8:36 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >Aren't we all immersed in stygmergy continuously while we're alive and
>> maybe before and after? This is a possible interpretation of Nick's
>> comment that everything is stygmergy.
>> >---
>> >Frank C. Wimberly
>> >140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> >Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >
>> >505 670-9918
>> >Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> >On Tue, Oct 19, 2021, 8:29 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com
>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>> >What I was driving at is that nature doesn’t give a damn whether we
>> categorize certain globs of stuff as “agents” or “environment” or
>> “transactions”. Stigmergy could be going all the time in some subtle way
>> we can’t discern because we are looking at the pieces the wrong way.
>> >
>> >> On Oct 19, 2021, at 1:05 PM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <gepropella at gmail.com<mailto:
>> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> To be clear though, this requires a flexible understanding of "agent"
>> or whatever's doing the indirect coordinating "through" the environment.
>> I.e. "stygmergy" isn't very well defined.
>> >>
>> >>> On 10/19/21 12:58 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> >>> Game of Life has been shown to be universal
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life
>> <
>> https://uwe-repository.worktribe.com/output/822575/turing-machine-universality-of-the-game-of-life
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I would expect there are many “intermediate lambda” CAs that behave
>> this way, and so could implement any simulation manifesting stigmergy.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 12:40 PM
>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Interesting point. What do the others think?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I think if you start with an "X" at the top and consider the X as
>> your agent and the space to the left and right as the environment then yes,
>> we would have a kind of stygmergy model for an agent which interacts in a
>> two dimensional world (one space and one time dimension). It is a rather
>> limited model though. I am not sure if it is useful :-/
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -J.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -------- Original message --------
>> >>>
>> >>> From: thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: 10/19/21 21:28 (GMT+01:00)
>> >>>
>> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
>> friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks, Jochen, for answering.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Let me try to stretch the point and see if I can bring you on board.
>> In the first place, mimimally, stygmergy need not involve sociality. So,
>> If I go out on a hike and cut blazes on trees on my way out so I can find
>> my way home, that is stygmergy in good standing, right?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Now let’s try a very simple ca where the rule is, if nothing is
>> written, write x; if x, white o beside; if o, write x beside.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> X
>> >>>
>> >>> OXO
>> >>>
>> >>> XOXOX
>> >>>
>> >>> ETC.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Now, if we consider what is written at each stage as a thing put out
>> in the environment and the “rules” what the organism brings to the table
>> then each line is the joint product of the previous line and the rule,
>> hence stygmergy.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Am I stretching a point. Is everything not stygmergy?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> N
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Nick Thompson
>> >>>
>> >>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> <mailto:
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
>> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 19, 2021 1:05 PM
>> >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> No, CAs are not a good model for stygmergy IMHO. Stygmergy is as
>> Wikipedia says a mechanism of indirect coordination through the
>> environment. For example: ants which exploit a food source by following a
>> pheromone trail. Or termites which build a nest.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> In Cellular Automata there is no clear distinction between agent and
>> environment. They are just a grid of states which evolves step by step by
>> updating the cells with a transition rule or function.
>> >>>
>> >>> The other type of collective intelligence besides stygmergy is swarm
>> formation. The individual member is attracted to the group as a whole but
>> repelled by other individuals. You know the classic Boids rules which
>> govern fish swarms and bird flocks: "stay close to the group but keep away
>> from your neighbors".
>> >>>
>> >>> For more complex things you probably need a code. If the individuals
>> are smart, then a few rules are enough - holy books have typically only a
>> few MB. If the individuals are lifeless molecules, then the code can be
>> several GB (a human genome has roughly 3 GB).
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hope that helps a bit? You are lucky to have such a smart grandson! I
>> believe Frank has grandchildren too.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jochen
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -------- Original message --------
>> >>>
>> >>> From: thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Date: 10/19/21 20:15 (GMT+01:00)
>> >>>
>> >>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
>> friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Subject: [FRIAM] stygmergy, CA's, and [biological] development
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Friends,
>> >>>
>> >>> Beware. As usual, I am trying to get you to think for me.
>> >>>
>> >>> My grandson is working on a regeneration project in his freshman
>> biolab (Planaria) and his sources and texts are replete with cognitive
>> language like “signal” and “memory” etc., which implies that as the worm
>> regenerates it is influenced by a guiding idea of what it is producing. My
>> basic intuition, as you know, that this doesn’t happen in human cognition,
>> let alone worm regeneration and that processes that produce a functional
>> head from a slice of the rear end of a flatworm have no idea what they are
>> doing even when they are done. Thus I imagine an advancing edge of
>> structure with each new bit influencing the rules by which the next bit .
>> Which, of course, puts me in mind both of stygmergy and of Cellular
>> Automata. So to my questions:
>> >>>
>> >>> Are Cellular Automata a good model for Stygmergy?
>> >>>
>> >>> Is Stygmergy a good model for organismic development?
>> >>>
>> >>> Why? Or Why not? Discuss.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Also, is there a good website, citizen-friendly, steep learning
>> curve, where my grandson and I could explore the relation between
>> developmental processes and ca’s. I looked at NewLogo Library and did not
>> find there any models of regeneration, but may not have known where to
>> look. I did find THIS <https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/> which
>> deep down in the Table of Contents seemed to have three regeneration models
>> including one named “Planaria”, but I could no see how to go further with
>> it. If somebody could have a look at it and give me some tips for how to
>> use it, I would be ever so grateful.
>>
>> --
>> glen ⛧
>>
>>
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