[FRIAM] aversive learning

[Gary Schiltz]

That idea (not Dave, but the idea that someone who might be in fact a bot)
reminds me of one or more trolls that used to, and maybe still do, hang out
on comp.lang.lisp under a variety of pseudonyms.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 10:26 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> I’m already convinced Dave is bot.  I know I am.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:23 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
>
> Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
>
> Glen quoted BC Smith:
>
>
>
> *"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment
> to the world."*
>
>
>
>  I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since
> I did my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any
> general sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We
> automatically and non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that
> engage the world and involve thick engagement) our children.
>
>
>
> This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of
> enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge
> about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance
> and context ....) was learned via any kind of formal education or training
> and yet it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending
> and utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.
>
>
>
> Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI
> (or even any complete specialized AI.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face
>
> > prison
>
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
>
> >
>
> > I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
>
> > mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap
>
> > about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk
>
> > about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes,
>
> > preventing collegial conversation.
>
> >
>
> > So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
>
> > Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to
>
> > memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate
>
> > Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just
>
> > *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under.
>
> > This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid
>
> > could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he
>
> > simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
>
> >
>
> > BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
>
> > in writing:
>
> >
>
> > "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
>
> > generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
>
> > systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
>
> > incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
>
> > engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
>
> > ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
>
> > sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional
>
> > commitment to the world."
>
> >
>
> > If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by
>
> > mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters
>
> > learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the
>
> > court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and
>
> > Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more
>
> > dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more
>
> > catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [ψ] https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> >
>
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>
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>
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> >
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