[FRIAM] aversive learning

Thu Sep 2 00:18:44 EDT 2021

Yes, but didn't developments in differentiable manifolds and related
mathematics make modeling those empirical discoveries possible?

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 9:31 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:

> Yes, probably among the cleanest of syntaxes.
>
> I like it.  To see it used more and better would be nice.
>
> Logic makes the connections that can be made by it.  (To say it better,
> which I think will relieve Glen of having to do it just to clear the
> irritation, _any given logic_ makes the connections that can be made within
> that logic.)
>
> Logic did not reveal to us that spacetime is Lorentzian and not
> Cartesian/Newtonian.  That was new empirical input.
>
> E
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2021, at 12:10 PM, <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <
> thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> In the same vein, as Frank, I suppose:  Isn’t logic a form of syntax?
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,B2UyeKdY2KA_d35EP_oVU45z4GzXhyPzOMshp94Jwpy_-svR3fGVDtdUyq7qXVnlDeFKLqN19D70CgqM1rvy2vttRXazT0ogbCaDBo2UMdwZ__kl_aLkf4W24gY,&typo=1>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 9:56 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
> >but largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to
> make, of believing one can argue from syntax to truth.
>
> Sometimes pure math reveals physics truth even when it wasn't the
> mathematician's purpose.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, 6:55 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:
>
> If done carefully, this could be a good conversation to have.
>
> The trick will be to clear the underbrush of obvious stuff and not go
> endlessly in circles on that, in the hope of getting to something
> non-obvious.
>
> There is various obvious stuff about solitons (including some storms),
> roles of boundaries, and the use of statistical definitions of
> individuality instead of naive matter-bounding definitions.  I have some
> extended sections on that kind of thing, to clear underbrush that is a
> needless mess in biology, in the book with Harold.  Like many other things,
> I put it there as the one place I knew it would be safe from ever being
> seen by anybody.  So far that has worked well.  Other authors, who have
> been engaged in endless bickering for saying similar things in journal
> articles, have had to shoulder all that traffic while I have been left in
> peace to try to get on to something new.
>
> But let me reiterate to try to keep Nick at bay: I am a polysemist.  The
> fact that a word gets used for several things does not lead me to think
> that they are the same or that it is merely a metaphor with one being
> primary and the others derivative.  I am not saying anybody else has to
> hold that view, only giving notice that I do.
>
> Case in point (as setup):  The back-and-forth on where the term “to have”
> came from now has me interested in that.  The exchange with EricC pushed me
> off a foolish position I had been holding, and in that way cleared
> underbrush, but didn’t yet get to anything original (at least not
> contributed by me).
>
> Other inputs:
>
> — I am unlikely to believe any path in this conversation that believes
> itself to be either top-down or bottom-up.  I think Glen’s oft-advocated
> middle-out is the only way to hope to have an insightful line of
> questioning.
>
> — Not having anything better to refer to, I like Gian-Carlo Rota’s notion
> (yes, Husser’s, or Heidegger’s, but the only version I have read directly
> is from Rota’s exposition) of “the unthematized” from phenomenology.
> Wherever these terms and their scopes come from, it seems to be there.
> Again I reiterate, for lack of having something better.
>
> — I know, from listening to them (but not committing to following them for
> 50 years, which I know is the minimal price of admission) that the
> Buddhists believe they have the Whole Story on this, and that it is much
> better than Rota’s “unthematized”.  But I have no way to know if that is
> the case, or if they just feel better believing it is.
>
> — This is why I like very widely cross-linguistic evidence bases, and I
> tend to dislike the thesaurus-type analytical reasoning of senses and
> subsenses of meanings, which strikes me as useful within small bounds, but
> largely having the error that analytical philosophers seem to me to make,
> of believing one can argue from syntax to truth.  If one can get parallel
> emergences of polysemies from many distantly-related branches (preferably
> whole-world, if one had the databases), that seems more likely to be
> informative on the experience of being human and the character of living.
>
> — It does seem a bit suspicious to me that Buddhism is a canon.  Any other
> commentary on living seems to change as the conditions of living change.
> So I have little resonance with bronze-age stories that murder is less of
> an offense against The Lord than eating shellfish, and I resonate much more
> easily with Irish folk tales for children than I do with many of their
> African counterparts.  I also find what counts as argument by Plato
> interesting but completely mystifying.  Of course the Buddhists would
> answer that their great eternity of reality was never perturbed by the
> ripples on a pond the life course of this planet, so why shouldn’t some
> Indians and Tibetans have come to discover the whole thing and final word
> in a few thousand years at a particular era in human history.  To me that
> position is tautological, and asserted by many religions, so I don’t see
> how to say anything useful to engage with it.  Happily, they have no reason
> to care what I think, about that or anything else, so they can go on living
> in peace and doing what they want.
>
> To end, because I need to go to a meeting: I don’t think the use of
> “individual” in psychology is super-close to the notion of being
> individuated as a cell, organism, soliton, hurricane, etc.  There can be
> some simple stuff to look for as overlaps, but I feel like the low-hanging
> fruit in that is all underbrush, which any college undergrad does staying
> up too late in gab sessions because doing your classwork is too tedious.
> It would be good to somehow see that we can recognize what much of that is,
> agree that the obvious things aren’t too controversial or very informative,
> and try to get past them.  I know with certainty I will be proved wrong in
> believing that is possible.
>
> But, still the topic is a good one,
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Sep 2, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Prof David West <profwest at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> A deep dive into the theory of reincarnation, Vedic version, reveals that
> the individual IS " simply a node in a system of interacting forces." The
> material aspect of that node, the incarnation, acts as a kind of inertial
> persistence - the forces repeat, moment to moment' the highly similar body
> with accompanying mental illusions of self. When the material body
> decomposes, the forces that gave rise to it do not and, with some degree of
> probability, give rise to a variant of the same entity at some point in the
> future. That second 'individual' is, to some statistical degree, the same
> individual previously incarnated but definitely not a clone — hence
> re-incarnation.
>
> But ultimately, all are nodes in systems of interacting forces.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 4:09 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com wrote:
>
> EricS asked:
>
> *What am I but an individual?*
>
> Could you simply be a unique node in a system of interacting forces?
>
> I have long wanted to write an essay as a psychologist to a meteorology
> journal entitled “Should we name storms?
>
> The first part of the essay argues that we shouldn’t name them because
> storms, unlike humans, are not proper individuals.  Ie the forces that move
> them are not the forces that define them.
>
> The second part argues that we should name them because humans are, in
> fact,, like storms, each one defined by the particular forces that act upon
> it.
>
> Nick
>
> Nick Thompson
> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f&c=E,1,6K-BylMLdNxb8DSP6nGmKKFojRxz62aTnShv8kLA9iqONITOdc8zXEfRa8StAS6sZvQo7tW_JrNr3-_NekQxdY_cqVT0UFgMwmYcmaenj-o,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, September 1, 2021 5:58 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
>
> > On Sep 1, 2021, at 11:41 PM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I was made to take piano lessons for five years.  I did minimal
> practice, but still hated it and the idea of it.  I can’t do it all now,
> and don’t wish I could.   Don’t tell me what is important.  I will
> prioritize what I want.
>
> I am imagining I see a through-line here, for several threads.
>
> We take individuality for granted; after all, what else can I be but an
> individual?  (The Buddhists will get all energized that that view is what
> is sending the world to hell.)
>
> But being an individual isn’t easy.  One can’t do it passively.  One has
> to constantly fight off the world’s encroachment to be an individual.
> Hence elbowing for space, just to elbow for space, is probably innate.
>
> There is a line, I think somewhere in Bible/Job/ that I have always liked
> and used, even though the book as a whole isn’t gripping to me, like
> something from an alien species, and could sort-of be about making
> almost-any point.  It was:
>
> “Why dost thou kick against the pricks?”
>
> I remember I was all in a prowl over getting an idiot-review of a paper,
> and in the mood that that puts me in, that I am eager to meet the reviewer
> with an A-10.  I wandered into the SFI kitchen to encounter Walter Fontana,
> always for me a comforting presence that the world would continue to have
> at least one interesting person in it, no matter what else happened.  I was
> unloading on him, because the only time I am funny is when I am really
> annoyed, and I don’t want all that to be lost, like Rutger Hauer says,
> “like tears, in rain” with nobody to enjoy it.  About 2 minutes in, I had
> Walter laughing out loud, and the culmination of my relation to reviewers
> was:
>
> Why dost thou kick against the pricks?  Because they piss me off!
>
> But back to the point: do we learn anything about the nature of
> individuality?
>
> Eric
>
> > That said, a vaccine is passive and takes no attention.
> >
> >> On Sep 1, 2021, at 7:29 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or
> >> face prison
> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.c
> >> om%2fpolitics%2f2021%2fsep%2f01%2fjudge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to
> >> -read-classic-literature-or-face-prison&c=E,1,M9NK9YVSpDUE3ATp1xxsWZ6
> >> 6fJfv7F41fZ3yhs00aXqlOlf6_8OBrRKThjnj4inZPPTHFPQ7WNCTHfJ5cMMP63OghVQR
> >> 2wAsowx7Pdk58b0,&typo=1
> >>
> >> I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
> mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap about
> fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk about how
> mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes, preventing
> collegial conversation.
> >>
> >> So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
> Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to memorize
> Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate Shakespeare, because
> she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just *thinks* she hates it because of
> this "mandate" she suffered under. This court mandated "literature therapy"
> being imposed on this kid could work, if he can read it sympathetically.
> But if he can't, if he simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
> >>
> >> BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
> in writing:
> >>
> >> "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment
> to the world."
> >>
> >> If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by
> mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters
> learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the court's
> reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and Prejudice,
> should teach that kid something. But which is the more dangerous stupidity?
> Which stupidity runs the risk of a more catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the
> vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?
> >>
> >>
> >> [ψ]
> >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fdoi.org%2f10.4324
> >> %2f9781351001885&c=E,1,kUEPqU5HqAHoV8Du4pwpdvHxqK_cJ1fOdlepXjYSapoLr0
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> >> po=1
> >>
> >> --
> >> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
> >>
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