[FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Sat Sep 11 12:00:49 EDT 2021
So Nick's point is you don't call an unborn child a "baby". Or a "child".
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:36 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
> Yes.
>
> On Sep 11, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> *we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that?*
>
>
> Agreed! But what will we talk about? :-)
>
> One question which I am asking sincerely. Can amniocentesis detect Down
> syndrome?
>
> Come back safely, Nick.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:13 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation
>> of consciousness.
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, depends on what you mean by reduction. If you limit reduction to
>> accounts in terms of events at lower levels or organization, then I
>> absolutely agree, and we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout
>> that?
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 4:18 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>>
>>
>>
>> 😁
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I should have known to hide the drugs from the addicts.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16 PM
>> To: friam at redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>>
>> It's your fault for focusing on reading ability instead of some less
>> subjective trait. Had you focused on, say, tool use <
>> https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal>
>> or somesuch, then we may not have gone there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding?
>> We always go there.
>>
>> On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > How did we get started on consciousness again? The thread started
>> with some snark about the power of GWAS associations..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank
>> > Wimberly
>> > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:56 AM
>> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>> > <friam at redfish.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation
>> of consciousness.
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Frank C. Wimberly
>> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >
>> > 505 670-9918
>> > Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
>> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > It's no more profound than any other multi-order composition. It's
>> part of the work we have to do for mechanistic modeling of higher order
>> constructs. What galls me is that we can talk about it so much without
>> discussing the mechanisms of construction.
>> >
>> > The details of composing from genes, through physiological
>> structures, through interoception, to very high order attributes like
>> "reading ability" are interesting, regardless of any profundity. But some
>> of us need to be reminded of how the details build the narrative. Like
>> Magic Eye pictures, the Necker cube, or the lady/vase thing, what might
>> seem banal without the larger frame can seem profound when the discourse is
>> enlarged ... when it all snaps into place.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > > Fine, the goal is some composition of functions and it is all
>> interdependent.
>> > >
>> > > Sure. Of course. Why is this so profound to y’all?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *thompnickson2 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 10:20 AM
>> > > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
>> friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Which takes us back to thermostats, intentionality, intensional
>> inexistence, Sober’s epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s law: The goal
>> is never the function. If you build a bird that measures competing male
>> robins in terms of “brown stick with red fluff” you eventually get an
>> ethologist who gets that bird to attack by providing only brown sticks with
>> red fluff.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > See. It’s all connected.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Nick
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Nick Thompson
>> > >
>> > > ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> <mailto:
>> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>>
>> > >
>> > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> <
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
>> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 12:30 PM
>> > > *To:* friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:
>> friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> > > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sometimes all you need is a good aphorism
>> > >
>> > > https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law <
>> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law> <
>> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law <
>> https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law>>
>> > >
>> > > or maybe boost it up with a cartoon
>> > >
>> > > https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>
>> <https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>>
>> > >
>> > > I can't help but wonder if there's an analog of Goodhart's
>> law lurking, here.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On September 9, 2021 2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> <mailto:
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Or they are reprogramming their people to be smarter!
>> > >
>> > > (Actually, deCODE is owned by Amgen now.)
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Selection is already occurring, so it isn't as if this is
>> some sci-fi thing.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/
>> <
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/>
>> <
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/
>> <
>> https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/
>> >>
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > >
>> > > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
>> > >
>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 2:12 PM
>> > >
>> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> > >
>> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Aha! This is why Iceland has the highest per-capita
>> fraction of published authors in the world. I had assumed it was the
>> weather….
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels <
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> <mailto:
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > That can be screened as well with a large
>> population-wide survey such has been done in the UK or Iceland.
>> > >
>> > > Of course, it is unlikely that complex behaviors will
>> be governed by isolated mutations, so the task is to look for highly
>> predictive motifs (e.g. regular expressions).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > >
>> > > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > >
>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM
>> > >
>> > > To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> > >
>> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Ha! Now you're trolling. The answer is: "because the
>> sites that generate reading ability (or whatever) *also* generate other
>> 'abilities'", with "abilities" in scare quotes because many abilities are
>> considered bad ... like the ability of a pimply faced white dude to shoot
>> up a church or blow up a federal building.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > In addition to polyphenism, there's robustness. If
>> more than 1 site generates the same functional ability (reading), then do
>> we write them all? ... just one of them? ... a probabilistically predictive
>> handful of them?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 9/9/21 10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > >
>> > > So find the sites that correspond to reading
>> ability, or whatever, and WRITE them.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > >
>> > > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
>> > >
>> > > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM
>> > >
>> > > To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
>> > >
>> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > I was alerted to this article this morning:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Can Progressives Be Convinced That Genetics
>> Matters?
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con <
>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con> <
>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con <
>> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con>>
>> > >
>> > > v
>> > >
>> > > inced-that-genetics-matters
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > It should delight those amongst us who rant about
>> the "woke". 8^D But it dovetails nicely with the fraught concept of
>> equality in the other thread.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the BIAPT announced
>> their early career prize winner Emily McTernan:
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo <
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo> <
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo <
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo>>
>> > >
>> > > rpoliticalthought.ac.uk <
>> http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk
>> >%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd
>> > >
>> > >
>> 6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG
>> > >
>> > > 0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1
>> > >
>> > > er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > "In her forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan
>> develops her work on social equality further, to advance a pioneering
>> conceptual account – and robust normative defence – of the phenomenon of
>> ‘taking offence’. Therein, McTernan contends, we should understand taking
>> offence, under appropriate conditions, as a civic virtue rather than a
>> vice, as an emotion that embodies the resistance of social inequalities
>> within a community."
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > >
>> > > From about a cancer rate of 10% (without
>> mutation) to 50% (with) but it depends on the BRCA variant.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca>>
>> > >
>> > > n
>> > >
>> > > c
>> > >
>> > > er.htm
>> > >
>> > > <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> >>
>> > >
>> > > a <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> >>
>> > >
>> > > n <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> >>
>> > >
>> > > cer.htm> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> <
>> https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm
>> >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank
>> Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> <mailto:
>> wimberly3 at gmail.com <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Is the Braca gene that little correlated
>> with breast cancer?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ---
>> > >
>> > > Frank C. Wimberly
>> > >
>> > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> > >
>> > > Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 505 670-9918
>> > >
>> > > Santa Fe, NM
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus
>> Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> <mailto:
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> <mailto:
>> marcus at snoutfarm.com <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Yeah, it is hard to get excited about
>> “unusual” variance. Modern
>> > >
>> > > classification algorithms like gradient
>> boosting make it possible
>> > >
>> > > to predict phenotypes, and to me that is
>> a lot more interesting
>> > >
>> > > (and still possible to deconstruct).____
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > __ __
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > *From:* Friam <
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:
>> friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> *On
>> Behalf Of *Eric Charles
>> > >
>> > > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021
>> 3:53 PM
>> > >
>> > > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied
>> Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:
>> friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com
>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
>> > >
>> > > *Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > __ __
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and also
>> the realities of biological complexity....
>>
>>
>> --
>> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>>
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