[FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture
Marcus Daniels
marcus at snoutfarm.com
Sat Sep 11 14:09:50 EDT 2021
For contrast, one might call teenagers Adult-candidates.
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 11:08 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture
Ok. Since you demand that I have an opinion, let’s call them all Child-candidates.
Nick Thompson
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 12:39 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture
Technology to the rescue!
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15112
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 9:01 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Wimberly's Conjecture
So Nick's point is you don't call an unborn child a "baby". Or a "child".
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:36 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Yes.
On Sep 11, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that?
Agreed! But what will we talk about? :-)
One question which I am asking sincerely. Can amniocentesis detect Down syndrome?
Come back safely, Nick.
Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 9:13 AM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of consciousness.
Well, depends on what you mean by reduction. If you limit reduction to accounts in terms of events at lower levels or organization, then I absolutely agree, and we can stop arguing about this for ever. How ‘bout that?
Nick Thompson
ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 4:18 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
😁
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 1:22 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
I should have known to hide the drugs from the addicts.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
Sent: Friday, September 10, 2021 12:16 PM
To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
It's your fault for focusing on reading ability instead of some less subjective trait. Had you focused on, say, tool use <https://ec.europa.eu/research-and-innovation/en/horizon-magazine/our-intelligent-ancestor-neanderthal> or somesuch, then we may not have gone there. ... Aaaaa, who am I kidding? We always go there.
On 9/10/21 12:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> How did we get started on consciousness again? The thread started with some snark about the power of GWAS associations..
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> *On Behalf Of *Frank
> Wimberly
> *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 11:56 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
>
>
>
> Wimberly's Conjecture: There is no correct, reductionist explanation of consciousness.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021, 11:44 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$ <gepropella at gmail.com<mailto:gepropella at gmail.com> <mailto:gepropella at gmail.com<mailto:gepropella at gmail.com>>> wrote:
>
> It's no more profound than any other multi-order composition. It's part of the work we have to do for mechanistic modeling of higher order constructs. What galls me is that we can talk about it so much without discussing the mechanisms of construction.
>
> The details of composing from genes, through physiological structures, through interoception, to very high order attributes like "reading ability" are interesting, regardless of any profundity. But some of us need to be reminded of how the details build the narrative. Like Magic Eye pictures, the Necker cube, or the lady/vase thing, what might seem banal without the larger frame can seem profound when the discourse is enlarged ... when it all snaps into place.
>
>
> On 9/10/21 10:25 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Fine, the goal is some composition of functions and it is all interdependent.
> >
> > Sure. Of course. Why is this so profound to y’all?
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> *On Behalf Of *thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>>
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 10:20 AM
> > *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
> >
> >
> >
> > Which takes us back to thermostats, intentionality, intensional inexistence, Sober’s epiphomenator, spandrels, and Lorenz’s law: The goal is never the function. If you build a bird that measures competing male robins in terms of “brown stick with red fluff” you eventually get an ethologist who gets that bird to attack by providing only brown sticks with red fluff.
> >
> >
> >
> > See. It’s all connected.
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> >
> > ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> <mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com>>>
> >
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ <https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/>>
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 10, 2021 12:30 PM
> > *To:* friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
> >
> >
> >
> > Sometimes all you need is a good aphorism
> >
> > https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law> <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law <https://sketchplanations.com/goodharts-law>>
> >
> > or maybe boost it up with a cartoon
> >
> > https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/> <https://sketchplanations.com/ <https://sketchplanations.com/>>
> >
> > I can't help but wonder if there's an analog of Goodhart's law lurking, here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On September 9, 2021 2:31:39 PM PDT, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > Or they are reprogramming their people to be smarter!
> >
> > (Actually, deCODE is owned by Amgen now.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Selection is already occurring, so it isn't as if this is some sci-fi thing.
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/> <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/ <https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/12/the-last-children-of-down-syndrome/616928/>>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 2:12 PM
> >
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
> >
> >
> >
> > Aha! This is why Iceland has the highest per-capita fraction of published authors in the world. I had assumed it was the weather….
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 10, 2021, at 2:17 AM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > That can be screened as well with a large population-wide survey such has been done in the UK or Iceland.
> >
> > Of course, it is unlikely that complex behaviors will be governed by isolated mutations, so the task is to look for highly predictive motifs (e.g. regular expressions).
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 10:12 AM
> >
> > To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
> >
> >
> >
> > Ha! Now you're trolling. The answer is: "because the sites that generate reading ability (or whatever) *also* generate other 'abilities'", with "abilities" in scare quotes because many abilities are considered bad ... like the ability of a pimply faced white dude to shoot up a church or blow up a federal building.
> >
> >
> >
> > In addition to polyphenism, there's robustness. If more than 1 site generates the same functional ability (reading), then do we write them all? ... just one of them? ... a probabilistically predictive handful of them?
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/9/21 10:00 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > So find the sites that correspond to reading ability, or whatever, and WRITE them.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >
> > From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> On Behalf Of u?l? ?>$
> >
> > Sent: Thursday, September 9, 2021 9:51 AM
> >
> > To: friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>
> >
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gen'fur
> >
> >
> >
> > I was alerted to this article this morning:
> >
> >
> >
> > Can Progressives Be Convinced That Genetics Matters?
> >
> > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con> <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con <https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressives-be-con>>
> >
> > v
> >
> > inced-that-genetics-matters
> >
> >
> >
> > It should delight those amongst us who rant about the "woke". 8^D But it dovetails nicely with the fraught concept of equality in the other thread.
> >
> >
> >
> > Coincidentally, also on 9/6, the BIAPT announced their early career prize winner Emily McTernan:
> >
> > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.associationfo>>
> >
> > rpoliticalthought.ac.uk<http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk> <http://rpoliticalthought.ac.uk>%2fbiapt-2021-early-care&c=E,1,Je9MVNdO8lpJQOd
> >
> > 6fZwUNe-4z5yuFq0upxNIzMBFjmLFh_h5a63ueVVpd8lkEdWeUx5Xx1RaoPg3T5Ph8YlG
> >
> > 0558qqHLZD8-DKeBPEC3YYM,&typo=1
> >
> > er-prize-winner-dr-emily-mcternan/
> >
> >
> >
> > "In her forthcoming monograph, Dr McTernan develops her work on social equality further, to advance a pioneering conceptual account – and robust normative defence – of the phenomenon of ‘taking offence’. Therein, McTernan contends, we should understand taking offence, under appropriate conditions, as a civic virtue rather than a vice, as an emotion that embodies the resistance of social inequalities within a community."
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 9/8/21 8:06 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > From about a cancer rate of 10% (without mutation) to 50% (with) but it depends on the BRCA variant.
> >
> >
> >
> > https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca> <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_ca>>
> >
> > n
> >
> > c
> >
> > er.htm
> >
> > <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_c> <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>>
> >
> > a <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>>
> >
> > n <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>>
> >
> > cer.htm> <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm <https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/disease/breast_ovarian_cancer/breast_cancer.htm>>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sep 8, 2021, at 4:07 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>>> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com> <mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Is the Braca gene that little correlated with breast cancer?
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> >
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> >
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> >
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 8, 2021, 4:57 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com> <mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Yeah, it is hard to get excited about “unusual” variance. Modern
> >
> > classification algorithms like gradient boosting make it possible
> >
> > to predict phenotypes, and to me that is a lot more interesting
> >
> > (and still possible to deconstruct).____
> >
> >
> >
> > __ __
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>>>> *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> >
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 8, 2021 3:53 PM
> >
> > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com> <mailto:friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>>>
> >
> > *Subject:* [FRIAM] gen'fur____
> >
> >
> >
> > __ __
> >
> >
> >
> > Gen'fur this, gen'fur that... and also the realities of biological complexity....
--
☤>$ uǝlƃ
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam<http://bit.ly/virtualfriam>
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20210911/0fafc6d8/attachment.html>
More information about the Friam
mailing list