[FRIAM] the cancellation arc
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
thompnickson2 at gmail.com
Thu Sep 16 11:54:28 EDT 2021
And how were those goals picked out from among other goals.
n
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2021 11:12 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
Any Prolog (logic) program will have a goal. Satisfying that goal does not involve any notion of pleasure. AI’s can have goals without pleasure. Stoics too.
On Sep 16, 2021, at 7:59 AM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
One man’s thread bending is another’s getting to the point.
By the way, how does an outcome come to be desired other than it delivers pleasure? How else do you tell the desired ones from the other ones. Eh?
n
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:55 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
The whole goals, functions, and its relation to pleasure or evolution is something you forced on to this topic. Since you insist, there can be useful reasons to stimulate pleasure centers. One might have sex just to spin up their nervous or cardiovascular systems a bit. Sugar, caffeine, some running, then I’m running hot for a while; feeling good – able to push through my ambivalence. Some people apparently need deep electrical brain stimulation to avoid falling into incapacitating depression.
A point of having access to brain circuitry and reading and perturbing it digitally would be to do more than a given brain can do and/or to help maintain it in some desired state, possibly having nothing to do with pleasure.
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 8:25 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
Hi, everyone [who is still following this thread].
Before I go back on my meds, I just thought I would send along this link <https://www.huffpost.com/entry/compass-pleasure_b_890342> . I should perhaps be embarrassed at sending a HuffPost link, but the summary of the old Olds/Milner research seems accurate enough and it is very succinct. On my account we have been talking all along about the epiphenomenal relation and in particular, that version of it which relates goals to functions. Functions are epiphenomenal with respect to the goals that serve them. The function of a pleasure (ie, a goal system) is to get us to do stuff that urgently needs doing. What happens when we access the goal system directly and make it possible to do essentially nothing and achieve the goal? Dave says, having learned what it had to teach him, he would put the device on a shelf. But how would he do that and WHY would he do that? What other goal-pleasure would be sufficient to mobilize and direct him in the putting of the device on the shelf.
Ok. Best be done for a bit. Let’ see. One tablet a day by mouth. Sorry to bother you all. I do learn a lot from these exercises, even if nobody else does. And then later I write something good, and that pleases me.
Nick
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 9:45 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
One could mimic the raw signals from sexual organs, or one could mimic the internal signals that are derived from those signals, that integrate with relevant context that create the perception of loving feelings and their “meaning”. Like in the dreams that have been discussed recently, the semantics are also encoded into neurons.
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:10 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
Yes, but WHY?
Probably time for me to figure out what my point is, here. First of all, we are deep in the epiphenomenon, spandrel, intensionality, blah-blah-blah perplex here, Pleasures are pleasures because the mean something, and if you disconnect the pleasure from the thing it means … disconnect the red fluff on brown wire from the thing it means to the male robin … you get the bird attacking the fluff and no territory defended.
I thought we were talking about a direct brain stimulation that produced orgasmic pleasure. So all your industry—salacious as it might be -- is irrelevant, no? And so is my puritanism.
What is not irrelevant – if indeed it is still regarded as valid science – is that ancient study with rats that involved wires in the “pleasure” center of the brain. Unless my Puritan Brain remembers falsely, the rats just went on pressing the bar until they starved to death. The evolutionary meaning of pleasure is what it leads you to do. Everything else is just spandrel.
Nick
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 8:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
Nick.... man.... sometimes you are so old and Puritanical-New-England-ey it is hilarious. "Hey everyone! Let's imagine that there wasn't a $50 billion dollar industry producing sex toy... ok... if that didn't exist, how would we invent one?"
Like.... should I send you links of people in public places with gadgets (remote controlled by premium-level paying fans) inserted in various orifices? It's a whole genera.
• Size of the global sex toy market 2019-2026 | Statista <https://www.statista.com/statistics/587109/size-of-the-global-sex-toy-market/>
On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 1:20 PM <thompnickson2 at gmail.com <mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> > wrote:
Ok. Imagine a device that would produce, at command, an orgasm. Imagine further that it had settings that could be tweaked to produce different intensities and kinds of orgasm. Imagine finally that it has a randomization setting. Imagine that it costs 49.95, 30 day money back guarantee.
Would you buy it?
Does this have to do with the Shirley/Kaye Sera dimension Glen and I were talking about? (I think Glen was the one amongst you clods that got that joke.) We who are in love with Shirley would never touch it; you Kaye-lovers would buy it, I suppose. Does it have anything to do with lack of respect for the decisions that Evolution has made for you? Is the Shirley/Kaye distinction a version of the Apollonian/Dionysian distinction? I hope that Dave West, priest as he is at the Temple of Kaye, with straighten me out on my Nietzsche. See also, Patterns of Culture <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruth_Benedict#Patterns_of_Culture>
N
Nick Thompson
<mailto:ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com> ThompNickSon2 at gmail.com
<https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 1:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
I think the Flow TD-NIRS system is like $50k for now, but it isn’t really buyable yet. The Flux magnetometer system would be in the millions, I think. Nothing beats implanted wires!
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> > On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 6:46 AM
To: friam at redfish.com <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] the cancellation arc
On 9/14/21 6:01 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
See kernel.com <http://kernel.com>
Yeh, like that... plenty of what looks like slick pre-release hype-by-allusion, yet undeniably evidence that the development in this area is in a virtuous feedback loop. A quick gander didn't present me with any numbers but the gear looks pretty pricey... probably the stuff of a future motorcycle/bicycle/climbing helmet to upload your brain as you go into a skid/fall/tumble!
On Sep 14, 2021, at 4:40 PM, Steve Smith <mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com> <sasmyth at swcp.com> wrote:
Glen-
Ha! Well, not for me. I'm a technophile. Even more important than drug-induced experiences are those induced by other technologies like transcranial magnetic stimulation, which I don't regard as fundamentally different from connectivity drugs. Implants would be even better for interacting with that hairball of [intero|proprio]ceptive feedback loops that compose consciousness as well as pain.
I've been dabbling with transcutaneous electro neural stim and electro muscular stim (TENS/EMS) primarily for pain and rehab (Mary's recent back/leg pain/dysfunction), trying to work it into the VR/AR simulacral artifacts I already fiddle with in Visual/Aural/CheapHaptics.
The accessibility of VR/AR gear (HUD/HMD/GPU/CPU) has already overshot my wildest dreams of a couple of decades ago I fiddled with EEG pickups 20 years ago but it was too early or at least there was a metaphorical impedance mismatch of sorts. I've NOT dabbled with transcranial magnetic stimulation... I don't even know if it is accessible. I am curious (guardedly hopeful) that these things are maturing at a pop/commercial level faster/better than at the professional level. There may well be a crowd-sourced ensemble exploration underway right now.
Regarding your muscaria/fly agaric aspirations, I'm hearing something more like homeopathy or law-of-similars since the "fly" in fly agaric comes from etymologically the habit of using it to poison flies by infusing it in milk to attract flies. Maybe this is entirely a tangent (most of my observations here *are* tangents?).
- Steve
So, I'll leave the sweat lodges and eating of wiggling things to more adventurous types like you. But the drugs need not be orally administered. I've always wanted to try to fly by painting myself with muscaria.
On 9/14/21 11:03 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Glen: /Were I fully liberated, I'd be doing a lot more, and a lot more diverse, drugs than I do./
Diversity of *_/experiences/_*, not just drugs!!
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