[FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
Gillian Densmore
gil.densmore at gmail.com
Fri Dec 16 16:26:58 EST 2022
didn't a famous aliens planet explode because they used the core of the
planet for energy use? something about corrupted kryptonian being his
weakness?
On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:21 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
wrote:
> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
>
> Terawatt-scale extraction of geothermal energy will increase the effective
> conduction of heat from the bottom of the mantle (directly or indirectly)
> to the surface, increasing the rate at which the solid inner core grows by
> freezing of the molten outer core.
>
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
> And you thought the shutdown of the north-atlantic thermohaline was a
> problem!
>
> On Dec 16, 2022, at 2:38 PM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>
> I do like the microwave energy transmission idea. I seem to recall that
> https://www.quaise.energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,i7KEoFhj8RfmmzQxSzRWIo92uxgI5qwES5F0AiZpxtIaxDFv_9qM1S_k1favS9oro6Wc-xxxdGI9SSqT_pRtOWM7cMDB5qtpDbFM6o789dwKS3l8&typo=1> got
> their first test device from the Air Force in Albuquerque that was
> experimenting with the devices for crowd control. Think of it! 5G that
> has a high-power beam forming mode that could disable pedestrians at any
> location!
>
> https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1169951
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,ZpWB376zypp1vASQJNnUNSZxvEnVc1oR_uKG_sashcRaqhpd3fAWec8sbN5HbDQwMctWbPfEMFUisetxm287Z4MSW7JV0c-w3G3MtIR_Mp2rEAo,&typo=1>
> Deep Geothermal Drilling Using Millimeter Wave Technology (Final Technical
> Research Report) (Technical Report) | OSTI.GOV - Office of Scientific and
> Technical Information
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov%2fservlets%2fpurl%2f1169951&c=E,1,uLydPEGROoddnzr5miKC3sWwQeHYKocEueFbaQ2b4Jr0cNYWPYZz_F5SPKq42zoIyFeZ160raLZr1ggNnst3WsAHD2HdXtvLF0dM50MvSfotwqo,&typo=1>
> Abstract. Conventional drilling methods are very mature, but still have
> difficulty drilling through very deep,very hard and hot rocks for
> geothermal, nuclear waste entombment and oil and gas applications.This
> project demonstrated the capabilities of utilizing only high energy beams
> to drill such rocks,commonly called ‘Direct Energy Drilling’, which has
> been the dream of industry since the ...
> www.osti.gov
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.osti.gov&c=E,1,Vs0igMWwDycX-LB6DUn9MsWHdw7nn37qeanM3zSHyR3uHvRvrYXnzlBxaiFV2cbelqw4ruG3bYHhWldQoMWzDpjaHo-CQgynxBmib8NrVUQ,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>
>
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,nV9xmDhwgm0p1o-qHiWaeFOEfwER5UlN9Y3Wabfvpk2IYKnJeWWG4Swl2dE635rRGMsbOwdFXea-oSOaEZFyCkKhBfwMfLPEJwKC1lzH6sTK-8ew-SuMtCUY&typo=1>
> Quaise Energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy%2f&c=E,1,ZVrUGECcu-cXZG9PtFVowPYbS9hJfivfe-YLbI3NgXgl4YjhSpSfJPuKChCYe_LAoH7dDbu4k3Yp4KVkYcVev6Iqp4n-TGRnxwppZF6QWjNdpiZ66e4,&typo=1>
> Quaise is an energy company unlocking geothermal energy for the world
> population through millimeter wave drilling technology.
> www.quaise.energy
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.quaise.energy&c=E,1,EoUr194LsLgnmfEzQwxcHXbNHWIBNSCKFysZ92shETogzxdNF3L33zcxJAKPhuRPxbUvUd45WRQLUjJDfRcpCYbOi7JIoqkYLTAzQbJGNQ,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Steve Smith <
> sasmyth at swcp.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 11:38 AM
> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
>
> On 12/16/22 10:56 AM, cody dooderson wrote:
>
> I had never heard of a transatlantic power grid. That is an interesting
> idea. The sun is probably shining somewhere on the earth at any given time.
> Would a lot of energy get wasted with the long distances?
>
>
> Nikola Tesla is rolling in his magnetically shielded grave hearing all
> this wasteful and under-inspired talk of long-range power transmission
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation.com%2fnikola-tesla-5g-network-could-realise-his-dream-of-wireless-electricity-a-century-after-experiments-failed-158665%23%3a~%3atext%3dHe%2520theorised%2520that%2520electricity%2520could%2celectricity%2520supply%2520were%2520never%2520realised.&c=E,1,Z78KbArJ6ZyU4lsCH5ZTaAazBlBWFSYCD5BB-tmHwnH6h0KlN-u-rHr15bAjmi0yHDrhOpM_uVTQk6N_VKmFjet3NUjoGL7pnF46-IaCnApO&typo=1>
> via wires?
>
> my SF addled brain conjures a snow-piercer
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.tntdrama.com%2fsnowpiercer&c=E,1,3632M-ARYoh18WP4Ebg9xB7ZSdj5vN7EfteAgA48GjtVg9HnSQwm-8NYZq16dpKsqI3NXxIlv9VWQRQ5t-Lf__nO18TM9jkB_qZEUbaE&typo=1>
> style earth-circumscribing rail-line... the pylons can be driven so deep
> into the earth's crust that they are tapped into the earth's inner heat,
> the rails can be the DC conduit Marcus suggests. There can be as many
> windmills and tidal turbines placed along the line as one feels they
> need/can-afford/stand-to-see as well as a PV/thermo solar continuous
> collector/shade-roof which can also enhance gradient by radiating into the
> (2.73-273 deg K
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fphysics.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f153839%2fwhat-is-the-temperature-of-the-clear-night-sky-from-the-surface-of-earth&c=E,1,Mym_MVP2YQQpG8ShnGwNgqA7mlDs-14HRuNLYPSrS_TLcWTQJS93tLKc4WuPtM4hKFR6eL-VrRsD-AeTXOFgpPm7pZnaTZp62gbUe8d3bxk3j7LI9ZTRZjXrHA,,&typo=1>)
> sky at night. The Snowpiercer rail-cars can move (make them pneumatic or
> evacuated-ballistic (~18mi/sec?)) physical goods and materials
> continuously... (thank you Elon Musk). Mount a few Spinlaunch
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.spinlaunch.com%2f&c=E,1,MOTshsb7TvaaZ3PnkdVodS1gcu9F7R_4CgYU2PKnxxnEl1alwhxwZZvlgvTDntZXW0c2_jWEyWazC5Q0iiFKcDMQ6dKv7VFywXQXnP6W-gqfLUIwrenxbQ,,&typo=1>
> units on train units and squirt things into orbit at-will?
>
> Wait, maybe it can become a strip-city modeled on SA's "Line"
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia>... at 100 miles
> long and 9million population, the circumferential "line" would be 240 times
> as long and have a carrying capacity of >2 Billion based on their predicted
> precedent. Place three of these orthogonal to one another like an armillary
> sphere <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere> and we are up to
> 6B? A modest bump in scale (cube root of 1.5) could accommodate 9B! A
> few of us (DaveW, GaryS, ... myself) rebellious non-urban renegades could
> live in the remaining landscape NOT covered by these 3 circumscribing strip
> cities and live our lives in the spirit of Sean Connery's character Zed in
> Zardoz <https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/>!
>
> Heck, just a nice precursor to Larry Niven's Ringworld
> <https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11183/could-we-build-a-ringworld-17166651/>
> tell Musk he can keep his claims to Mars... at least until the rest of us
> need the mass to integrate into a proper Dyson Sphere
> <https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a11098/dyson-sphere/>
> ...
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022, 10:46 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> frank: ah! thanks. It seems like you've had 99 lives man.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:28 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of a large transatlantic DC power cable. That would
> enable solar power to be distributed around the world. It would reduce
> the need to depend on batteries for wind and solar. Of course, you raise
> #3, so it would be a target for sabotage like with Nordstream. It would be
> nice to think there are things just to valuable to destroy, but probably
> there are no such things.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of Sarbajit Roy <
> sroy.mb at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 16, 2022 12:01 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement
>
> What you are missing includes
> 1) Disposal of long term hazardous nuclear waste.
> 2) Problems in maintaining / decommissioning ol older nuclear
> fission plants
> 3) Examples like we are seeing Ukraine's nuclear plants caught up in a war.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 2:59 AM Gillian Densmore <gil.densmore at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ok so this is cool and all.
> Sigh I'll ask *that* question. We want less carbons because the planet is
> on f'n fire <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFgBFYkBZ6E> . As far as I
> know humans (in the very least) accelerated climate change. Ie we made this
> mess clean it up. ok fair so far I'm following.
> So uh why not just start with fission (breeders) ? Why not also put as
> much money into matter/anti matter as well as fusion? We can make minute
> amounts of antimatter in massive collider. I'd think something who's by
> product are xrays gamma and some other stuff with a lot of energy created
> would be a massive honney pot the department of energy would pursue as well.
> I know the answer to fission (sadly) is NIMBY. (yes but it's a lot cleaner
> and safer than oil and coal I say)
> I don't know why we haven't looked at other things as well
> What I'm saying is fusion has been humans icarus wings with it being just
> arround the corner for decades. while matter/anti matter is (sort of) here.
> Fission is here. Want zero carbons? cool! so why not build out a ton of
> reactors we already can do. Or am I missing something?
>
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 8:31 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
>
> How ICF might evolve into a power plant:
>
> https://firstlightfusion.com/technology/power-plant
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ffirstlightfusion.com%2ftechnology%2fpower-plant&c=E,1,1NJ-XcDEmKi04uhzUB2lMLLrnNmeOamZbsh4x1nomKptnRcepuAG6nIzZa-Vkp6j7FXfy6H03NI33ZqC50Mmb520tTTW8fZrKMl6VNCK&typo=1>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 14, 2022, at 7:16 AM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Excellent! Thanks. I think I'll have to push this topic for another day.
> I've got a few more links from other fora I'll plop here just in case I
> only land back here if/when I pop it off the stack later:
>
>
> https://lasers.llnl.gov/news/magnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2flasers.llnl.gov%2fnews%2fmagnetized-targets-boost-nif-implosion-performance&c=E,1,hBEOlKMckpiDlTJRo-WMQ56EfZB3lRXOEUuD1VMkpQJa7P3Uai717KSKg7Vj3lVpfZ5obboXZXkuKQjsh_7Q5MxlQr9IE-41gqZdtlw9JzZ5y8CqG4kq7gnyKg,,&typo=1>
>
> https://spie.org/news/nuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis?SSO=1
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fspie.org%2fnews%2fnuclear-fusion-nifs-hall-of-mirrors-may-solve-worlds-energy-crisis%3fSSO%3d1&c=E,1,GpCwEyhXVZIFhCAPfuU3lWNSG77phcjxX5MROX9cuTbzcMJv84wE7troNfSjHa6PTjz6yJ13kVQltdk8tYUMQCp7SXNmzljHyri7FdraVJOlK_7siKJ86g,,&typo=1>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fcontent%2farticle%2ffusion-power-may-run-fuel-even-gets-started&c=E,1,jUBL7xpus60wLeNUs2773Lb4fAQckmofYkTHcMV4xRrIfZK7qgpaj1zbVa0DgSUnnKWOduJnGFagpMIdATeil7rK35MgkXSpBuXj-y8WZg,,&typo=1>
>
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/12/what-enabled-the-big-boost-in-fusion-energy-announced-this-week/
>
> On 12/13/22 16:23, Steve Smith wrote:
>
> I think DT refers simply to the remaining fraction of Deuterium/Tritium
> remaining after the reaction event (-4%) without specific accounting for
> remaining D vs T.
>
> My understanding is that D-T fusion occurs at a lower temperature than
> D-D but that once fusion commences (starting with D-T), both D-T and D-D
> reactions occurring in similar amounts. In laser-driven ICF (as with NIF) I
> believe the ratio of D/T is nominally 50/50 though it would seem to make
> sense to have a higher T to D ratio but most references I see imply equal
> portions. An equal number of D-D and D-T reactions would seem to consume
> D more quickly, though as that commences, the D/T ratio would go down,
> making D-T reactions (yet) more likely... tricky business, no wonder it
> has taken decades to get to this point?
>
> The Wikipedia Entry on ICF is pretty good:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_confinement_fusion
>
> I found several popular science Articles which seem to reinforce my sense
> that this "breakthrough" is not as significant as implied:
>
>
> https://www.science.org/content/article/fusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.science.org%2fcontent%2farticle%2ffusion-breakthrough-nif-uh-not-really&c=E,1,bJK6eG7pRdZE7HXvxjakoGRlYzeO2sqOB6whhs0kHLnlO5a5-0R5olAtI6nD6th9x7swmyW9BIom9TGSnxOheZ5N4vnYYOlrKcdO5k22UtRVZMrzFSo29vBkjg,,&typo=1>
>
> Other interesting/relevant links regarding D-T and D-D fusion...
>
>
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263507001_Species_separation_and_modification_of_neutron_diagnostics_in_inertial-confinement_fusion/figures?lo=1
>
> https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.energy.gov%2fscience%2fdoe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions&c=E,1,OQeZ4eIqEldZ9Yy6dVdmHJ1n8_TELmX4RzLcEPE6xPLUJnh42qFE9PhkDL_Vp177-_HidTb8v_JAEgderc1dXmiU1QkJLoFpnnkS-ARLuL0L8No,&typo=1>
> <https://www.energy.gov/science/doe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.energy.gov%2fscience%2fdoe-explainsnuclear-fusion-reactions&c=E,1,oWM_h3U7NPiyhduzLgZpLu64qYzqtG3kY4NJAgXnIS68g7rl7-S0Sx-6up-6BGFFxM9KP32QJ16Rmu5LD4CLj9DLj9Hq2Mx78CznsSn4ppGuJW-Qf3AFj-9c5Ko,&typo=1>
> >
>
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscience.jrank.org%2fpages%2f4732%2fNuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html&c=E,1,QPrI9T8WGsJ0E9c57KKQkRF5IRiaUIXl4jsyZRJzyYAtw0V30ym8NNFIIbXmXm9A65hpL8qtJ99t9e6Xf28Tj8dY_UBuKPUVVZHdwRK5pQ,,&typo=1>
> <
> https://science.jrank.org/pages/4732/Nuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html
> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fscience.jrank.org%2fpages%2f4732%2fNuclear-Fusion-D-D-D-T-reactions.html&c=E,1,7zYeFzMI7Os8oelzDnXlCiySZ0j4sLLHbHDXW4jiXKr4ftoxYmyy0DUz7NScHrpkjArprm-QNMnb50FOSneRe8iXNJrb4szplQWjVfo62X9Yod0w&typo=1>
> >
>
> On 12/13/22 4:36 PM, glen wrote:
>
> That's why I asked. I guess I'll assume DT means both deuterium and
> tritium, not just deuterium. If you were going to track fuel use, you'd
> track the rarer part more closely, right?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:22, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> DT = deuterium?
>
>
> ---
>
> Frank C. Wimberly
>
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
>
> 505 670-9918
>
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2022, 10:21 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com <mailto:
> gepropella at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Awesome. Thanks. I'm still trying to catch up with the QC Wormhole
> kerfuffle. Who knew Quanta was so click baity?
>
>
> What is "DT"?
>
>
> On 12/13/22 09:02, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>
> > In case no one wanted to get up at 7:00am to watch DOE
> administrators talk:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > 1. Controlling the laser in space and time was important for
> maintaining symmetry. Timing precision of 25e-12 secs and laser spatial
> precision of 5e-12 meter were needed. This was thought to be the main
> explanation for the achievement.
>
> >
>
> > 2. 8% more power on the laser this time
>
> >
>
> > 3. x-ray tomography is used to find flaws in the capsules.
> Developing software to do the counting.
>
> >
>
> > 4. They have ongoing efforts to study the fabrication systems and
> their components (done in Germany) to find idiosyncrasies of each.
>
> >
>
> > 5. Laser technology improvements since NIF was built which are 20%
> more efficient.
>
> >
>
> > 6. Target cost is from labor, and it takes 7 months each
>
> >
>
> > 7. 4% of DT is burned in a shot
>
> >
>
> > 8. Machine learning ties together radiation hydrodynamics and
> experimental data. (It sounded preliminary.)
>
> >
>
> > 9. The (successful) capsule had more defects than previous
> experiments. However, previous experiments did show benefits from capsule
> quality.
>
> >
>
> > 10. 15% of experiments are indirect drive of this kind, 15% of
> experiments are other approaches to ignition. The rest are weapons and
> materials characterization.
>
> >
>
> > 11. Anomalous laser directional control were problems in the summer
> runs. Fixed that.
>
>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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