[FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy
Marcus Daniels
marcus at snoutfarm.com
Tue Feb 8 13:26:21 EST 2022
I thought the pressure was reduced at gate stations down to a low pressure. Can the thickness of the residential pipes handle the pressure it would take to drive a turbine?
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 10:14 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy
The diameter of the pipe is fine. However, a micro expander/turbine needs to be invented.
On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 11:07 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
Could this idea work all the way out to the consumer? Get a pump/generator delivered by the storage company and hook it up to obsoleted gas service?
I’m not actually sure I could get 400-amp service to power an electric car and electric water heaters, heat pump, and computer equipment. Also, in fire-prone areas, delivery of electricity via air would be safer. In my county it is possible to get batteries paid from PG&E if one has had multiple outages for fire safety.
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 7:51 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy
Renewable has three issues right now and generation is not one of them, yet most people focus on generation. The issues are intermittency, transmission lines and financing new assets. We are forcing the retirement of revenue producing assets they have been paid for. By storing air in pipelines until needed we are solving intermittency. By generating closer where the energy is used we are greatly reducing the need for transmission. By reusing the infrastructure we are saving a paid for asset. Yes the conversion efficiency is low, but who cares. The storage is incredibly huge. Inertia energy itself pays for itself 50x this way and its instant. Look up Long Duration Energy Systems. This is the scramble that is going on right now.
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:46 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
The conversion losses seem like a big issue?
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 5:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy
Marcus
That is a famous prototype. Recently Hydrostor made headlines building new CAES plants. The main issue is the need of a salt cavern. The amount of possible sites is very small. The caverns are used to mine salts for bleaches/chemicals or to store natural gas. This tech is $111/kwh.
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 6:14 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com<mailto:marcus at snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
For comparison
https://schaperintl.com/is-the-juice-worth-the-squeeze-compressed-air-energy-storage-for-grid-scale-power/
From: Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com<mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com>> On Behalf Of Michael Orshan
Sent: Monday, February 7, 2022 3:42 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com<mailto:friam at redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Another Stunning Hydrogen Development - Retake Our Democracy
Hi Frank:
We need any, but hopefully renewable energy, to generate power for the compressors. This also creates heat which we can recycle for more electricity or use for industrial purposes. Our efficiency isn't high, but once we are in the pipelines we have a huge battery. 60 miles, 36 inch diameter can hold 240MWh. We can be instant inertia energy or generate. Our storage costs are about $50/kwh. Batteries are $400/kwh for example. Also, we can store compressed air for months upon months. Also, if we can build the renewables close enough to the plant we can go DC/DC which is a 25% energy savings not having to convert to AC.
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:05 AM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com<mailto:wimberly3 at gmail.com>> wrote:
How do you compress the air? Any method I can think of uses energy. From what source?
Frank
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz, <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
Santa Fe, NM 87505<https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail&source=g>
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022, 10:57 AM Michael Orshan <morshan at gmail.com<mailto:morshan at gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi. I'm a reader more than a contributor, but the Hydrogen discussion is close to my day to day.
Many of us in renewables think Hydrogen might mostly be kick the can as Steve mentioned. It is something that might be economically feasible in the 2030s and so the length of time oil companies sell oil increases. Having said that, there are a number of very pricey Hydrogen projects getting funded. That might be showing how profitable the O&G industry is.
I'm working with a company we call Breeze<http://www.breezesqueeze.com>. It uses compressed air in pipelines to move turbines at power plants. Without fossil fuels or using water this is getting a lot of attention. There are many advantages such as cold air where compressed air is released that can be used by data centers. 25% of all GHGs come from generating electricity. 45% of all water used in the US is used to create electricity.
We see this as a better option than Hydrogen. We do think Hydrogen fuel cells are a solution for mobile applications.
Mike Orshan
On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 10:27 AM Steve Smith <sasmyth at swcp.com<mailto:sasmyth at swcp.com>> wrote:
On 2/6/22 8:31 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
https://thebulletin.org/2022/01/whether-green-blue-or-turquoise-hydrogen-needs-to-be-clean-and-cheap/
Low-cost fossil fuel resources are finite. Someday it will simply not be possible to burn oil, natural gas, and coal for the affordable heat, electricity, and motive power humans need to power their prosperous societies.
Must we always begin with the assumption that growth in terms of geographical/geometric, material and energy consumption/appropriation are requisite to continuing/growing a "prosperous society"? Tangentially (or not), if "green" hydrogen implies a 2:1 ratio of CO2 production to H2 but often begins with fossil fuels, it is obviously yet another "kick the can down the road" solution. Harvesting solar and direct-solar/lunar-derived energy (including wind, tidal) and channeling it through our living (including technological infrastructure and agri-industry) systems to yield high-entropy "waste heat" seems to be orders of magnitude more sustainable (if still questionable on some very long time-scale limited by a Dyson-Sphere-like-limit). If the H2 is created by cracking H20 (and capturing both to be recombined later to release energy) using solar (and other renewables) energy it is a *closed cycle*. One would presume the total amount of H2 we would have stored/
From ecology there comes the observed phenomena of "island syndrome" which can include island dwarfism and poikilothermy which are both driven by reducing the demand on finite resources without giving up function or complexity.
From Alexander Payne comes the absurdist SciFi flick Downsizing<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downsizing_(film)#Plot> which postulates by shrinking humans by ???-fold (5 inches tall ~= 12:1 in 1 dimension, 144:1 in cross section and 1728:1 in volume/mass... ) the movie implies no change in metabolic rates which would nominally speed up with "shrinkage", yielding (also) shorter lifespans. Oh well.. Fiction. But the point would seem well taken... Gaia would get a 2000:1 reprieve from our *current* energy/mass burden on her systems.
I'm not promoting shrinking people as-such, just noting that our 0th order instinct is growth, and supralinear if at all possible, up to and likely achieving Kurzweillian asymptotic resource consumption.
On that note, I believe that the myriad technological singularity concepts all point toward increased complexity and downscaling to extend the use of material and energy, driving up the effective collective metabolism of "the system" and paradoxically *increasing* the rate at which we approach any of the jillion ecophagic gray-goo<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_goo>-like scenarios neo-luddites like me might contrive.
I assume (but have not yet poked around for) that Alifers have already studied the multi-scale *structure* of negative entropy profiles in complex systems-of-systems. I think Glen has his ear closer to that rail than some here? EricS? ??? I'm still fascinated in the topic but gave up my little-toenail-purchase in the community in the early 2000s - Symbiotic Intelligence ALifeVI<https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~rik/alife6/papers/SY51.html>. This reads so naive yet (mildly) prophetic now...
All is lost! Flee the solar system!
On Feb 6, 2022, at 7:20 PM, thompnickson2 at gmail.com<mailto:thompnickson2 at gmail.com> wrote:
Grey hydrogen?
https://retakeourdemocracy.org/2022/02/06/another-stunning-hydrogen-development/
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