[FRIAM] health care logistics
Frank Wimberly
wimberly3 at gmail.com
Mon Jan 24 17:05:44 EST 2022
I apologize. By "DLU" I meant Don't Look Up. I am sensitive about
mentioning it after Friday's meeting.
---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 3:00 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu> wrote:
> Neat, thank you Frank,
>
> If anyone else was wondering what a DLU is, I am guessing Frank is
> referring to something like this:
>
> https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33280876/
>
> btw, for those who really love TLAs or FLAs, here is a slight edit of some
> sentences from the abstract:
>
> In this study, the SWAT model was used to simulate surface runoff in
> the small Sahelian watershed of Tougou, which underwent significant
> LULC changes between 1952 and 2017. Based on rainfall/runoff data
> acquired from 2004 to 2018, the SWAT model was calibrated under two
> scenarios: a SLU using a single LULC map (in 1999) and a DLU
> integrating 3 LULC maps (1999, 2009 and 2017).
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Jan 24, 2022, at 4:48 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I read the Seibert and Rees article. It looks like a DLU scenario could
> be a blessing. If course we have no control over that. Who thinks it's
> possible to reduce the population of the Earth by almost 90% ?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 2:41 PM David Eric Smith <desmith at santafe.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, wikipedia said it. It was Roddenberry’s friend.
>>
>> On Jan 24, 2022, at 4:23 PM, Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:
>>
>> Glen writes:
>>
>> < That's not true at all. Closed systems do have disclosures in terms of
>> the behavior of their boundary. Granted, one may not have constitutive
>> understanding of what's happening inside the membrane. But one can profile
>> the behavior of the surface. And if that behavior changes over time, then
>> it's capable of corruption.>
>>
>> My point is that if one has enough resources, it simply doesn't matter
>> whether the constitutive understanding of what is happening inside the
>> membrane is achieved by outsiders, nor does it matter how outsiders
>> evaluate the changes on the surface. The closed system simply does not
>> concern itself with such evaluations as they are of no consequence. It
>> can jump between sets of principles for any number of reasons, including
>> amusement. I am of course thinking of Q! (Musk is not quite there.)
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(Star_Trek)
>>
>> Marcus
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <
>> gepropella at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 2:13 PM
>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>>
>> That's not true at all. Closed systems do have disclosures in terms of
>> the behavior of their boundary. Granted, one may not have constitutive
>> understanding of what's happening inside the membrane. But one can profile
>> the behavior of the surface. And if that behavior changes over time, then
>> it's capable of corruption.
>>
>> On 1/24/22 13:07, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> > Closed systems don't have disclosures, so there's can't be this social
>> notion of corruption. I changed my mind today: I'll put new quarters into
>> the machine and see what happens.
>> >
>> > Marcus
>> >
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <
>> gepropella at gmail.com>
>> > *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 1:26 PM
>> > *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
>> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>> > Well, yeah, I see little evidence of such principle-free attractors too
>> ... because I'm conditioned to think all actors have prior principles and,
>> when they achieve power, they slide into corruption. I.e. I see no evidence
>> that there are no such thing as unprincipled actors. And that means, as an
>> actor drifts from one set of principles to another, that is corruption. The
>> only way out of that is to be vague about your principles (plausible
>> deniability) or make your principles *generic* enough to apply to multiple,
>> parallaxed, methods/behaviors ... or both.
>> >
>> > Arguments that rely on generlized principles are everywhere, from
>> biology (survival, food, gene transfer, etc.) to psychology to politics.
>> Even if many of those turn out to actually be vagaries instead of
>> generalizations, those are the arguments ... and in the context of those
>> arguments, power corrupts.
>> >
>> > One of the advantages the Bayesians and postmodernists have is they
>> admit up front that their ephemerides will change. And as long as they're
>> fairly clear about how they'll *try* to update their systems in a
>> transparent way, then it's difficult to accuse them of corruption. Hence,
>> secrecy and closed systems are more readily corruptible than open ones.
>> >
>> > On 1/24/22 11:56, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> >> If what you mean is that there are consequences to indifference to the
>> environment and to each other, I don't see a lot of evidence of such
>> attractors. If there are no principles and we are merely beings that
>> notice attractors and naming them, there's not much point in ideology,
>> religion, and so on. Perhaps they were always delusions, and it was only
>> the Musk's, etc. that have found, through their wealth, the autonomy to
>> come to grips with that. Counterexamples like Putin come to mind, where
>> it does seem to be a reinforcement issue.
>> >>
>> >> Marcus
>> >>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <
>> gepropella at gmail.com>
>> >> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 12:41 PM
>> >> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
>> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>> >> Scaled need for entropy: It's not clear to me why we'd believe smaller
>> orgs need less entropy. I agree they have smaller *stores* of "energy".
>> And, to some extent, I can see that some ways entropy manifests could
>> dissipate those stores more than they accumulate them. (Regarding meeting
>> objectives as one kind of store ... e.g. using money to achieve some
>> objective is a - perhaps inefficient - transfer from one store to another
>> -- since Tom posted about SysDyn.) But I could easily argue that small orgs
>> need *more* entropy than large orgs.
>> >>
>> >> Semantics of Corruption: Well, I agree that one can't be corrupt if
>> one has no principles from the start. This is, I think, a fundamental part
>> of the arguments in favor of open-ended evolution (and extending into
>> metaphysics like parallel worlds). But even if we gave up on the idea that
>> there's an, in principle, set of values to start with, we can still arrive
>> at an attractor so strong that the system will never leave it. The argument
>> against Growth and the need for a "paradigm shift" is exactly such an
>> argument. We're so brainwashed by that paradigm, even those of us who see
>> the engine's headlight at the end of the tunnel can't think any
>> differently. So ... how could I say it so you agree with it? Power is
>> self-reinforcing even when it becomes obsolete?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 1/24/22 11:30, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> >>> Employees in a large organization are in one sense cells, but in
>> another sense parasites. (The largest parasite being the CEO.)
>> Nevertheless, the organization needs the diversity of these agents --
>> whatever one calls them -- to innovate and survive. Without the entropy,
>> the organization is just a machine, and the people can be replaced with
>> simple robots. It is small organizations, where there is less ability to
>> take on debt and tolerate waste, where shared values can help keep focus in
>> a situation of limited resources.
>> >>>
>> >>> I don't really buy your claim that power corrupts. One could just
>> as well say that being weak makes one rationalize their weakness. If
>> there isn't a shared value system, there is no reason to say that it has
>> been corrupted. Perhaps rather that once entropy is eliminated, then
>> death will soon follow. Entropy could still be high and inter-group
>> violence common.
>> >>>
>> >>> Marcus
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> on behalf of glen <
>> gepropella at gmail.com>
>> >>> *Sent:* Monday, January 24, 2022 12:00 PM
>> >>> *To:* friam at redfish.com <friam at redfish.com>
>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] health care logistics
>> >>> At first, I struggled to see how this mapped to health care
>> logistics. But on 2nd read, it clearly does.
>> >>>
>> >>> The question that now dominates is a) shared values - even if it's
>> overshoot and we know it's overshoot, do the exploiters (and their
>> rhetorical victims) care at all about the same things the ... "earthists"
>> or "humanists" or "biodiversisists" might care about? And b) nonlinear
>> exploitation power - orthogonal to shared values, is it possible the
>> space/landscape has changed so radically that the tiny produce we now
>> exploit might have a huge impact going forward? (Or, maybe vice versa,
>> every Joule we squeeze out now has a much smaller impact than the Joules we
>> extracted in the '60s?)
>> >>>
>> >>> Those questions translate to health care in the form of motivation
>> comparison between, e.g., pharma employees. Some are in it for the science.
>> Some are in it for the money. Some are humanitarians. Etc. Do the
>> executives share the values of their employees? A little? A lot? The same
>> with insurance undewriters, financialists at hospitals and offices, etc.
>> >>>
>> >>> Technically, it's completely reasonable to NOT implement
>> bootstrappable systems, systems "written in" themselves. We've talked a lot
>> on this list about self-reference and if/where we use the words "tautology"
>> or "degeneracy". Even if we assume the shared value that earth is just the
>> initial *seed* for life and that seed will be a dried up husk when we
>> diaspora into the galaxy, *when* will we have to solve the sustainability
>> question? Perhaps we should solve it for our 2nd planet? Or maybe we
>> iterate slowly from our current non-bootstrapping algorithm of "growth"
>> toward an algorithm of sustainable?
>> >>>
>> >>> The same argument goes for the Big Software argument proffered By Dr.
>> Coon. Sure open source packages developed by some kid in Iowa shouldn't
>> found the entire Java-based infrastructure. But, similarly, not every piece
>> of crypto or opsec needs to come from Israel or the NSA. Can we move
>> between and within Big Software and hacking? Can we move between Growth and
>> Sustainability?
>> >>>
>> >>> And more importantly, should we all agree on values, like some
>> fascist state? Or is there room for reasonable disagreement or meandering
>> non-equilibria?
>> >>>
>> >>> On 1/21/22 13:00, David Eric Smith wrote:
>> >>>> Some of the condensations in this thread, as causal interpretations
>> of social dynamics, are real gems. They are much more interesting as
>> claims than the endlessly recycled platitudes that seem to be all I am
>> seeing in punditry.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I have wondered about sending the following to the list, but this is
>> probably a good thread in which to do it:
>> >>>> https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,brEn7VKkm2bAeteufr44p-mu9QIrgjmeVD3Mm5Gt1VGoZKl5ZUSsECfDv6iF2_IEUiifx2-KlNwNXrxq_LHO0BGYiq23Q0B7cwpwmzKbyrYprfkhN-wORcY,&typo=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,5oUnhQA_b8VwMjJmMDyizwdh0dy2aTQG1Uuro5WnR0rscoqv3id-eximvVqh8S_EMRXpLGQ1H7qKVApyeNg2tz5pnXrB-orC3IAXVwnqvwBMbA,,&typo=1>>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,z3fv0okh0Bx1vL_4q8nY26g8oNiltAe9h-WTzx6T35I11z3H_mv5Vr2znpKvSrL_dOFuT7_N88hadgtfJ-ERUHgQqQe-FE_m71MgtF9311S5Q3hd9V4M1RYgOnv6&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,vGEgiPESFPO54n9VqCmCqCSrTg1WwbMpTuxsM3RTf2I5lXxybmJTEoK1KkBPXNMI42H4sThnAtiZ5sZAd3d9t-qM2HOdkfVGllmAmfiI&typo=1>>>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,fxaRYhdjUSBDhxaIRTz9raIYildn4d13UKrj5fXK4r3pIIzhJW-dSeOweR7bPzybAD9_suUvApx9vTSFrrvGI8WO4mWe7TaW3e480b0fma8JDVKC-Bm2&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,WkEBmHnqxzRI-y-DnvmbDxdF4d6hHHBAzsbvpFcEq5IJD4NvBD2UsaTHdJji108MAaPLlLPiStrugcqQqaOiMWtRPPD06_j86OHIGMgxDGaIvA,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,TPI7OWo1BSJ_bwS9Glh1mpaxejYJfJmnvuI1-IdxEjI2JxnAdWd07bTUI2xTTrA_zb4ObBr5V5LQEHU1UvRm3_28XOARVJuGhh6sLVQvjw,,&typo=1>>>>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,C7ZtrQEYrDREYieUnjZfXk7h_fqoJVo_XLRZmQyXYUyZDc0kdEBj0zr06ye4i8_yl3UqA9_-CyhgrU8dJLGGrUO2zXkjfIdPbVLlTLzRgotXQlf6_N1iirnYZw,,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,kbE-VsFbc0X0JtCpCWBbSozm7vJyYF01IsFO0OLFuJClsD1e6N9rRJnq2j_d0b194MJa75oFFcb7J-zpwzouX8_ZOqDF4NBmbEBLr5lxKmt7Dl0,&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,dX2XLygBzEKSBEmwRpWLYCCNxAbMocoEqT9qbTbVrV7CHhEdlHxy3SEMeb8q_5k7OU7kkhRh2K0-dZ0rMJp0Xos3TKR3shQEJ9jCb-Ek&typo=1&ancr_add=1>
>> <https://ideas.repec.org/a/gam/jeners/v14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fideas.repec.org%2fa%2fgam%2fjeners%2fv14y2021i15p4508-d601755.html&c=E,1,fyHIg4Tjg8E8y1z3SeBjhUBQ-CSi_TXwdT9EpUHKM2DmWF9WI7lG93IxpbRbWdE7ZBHbOm-aruXZKfU4pzzSACYkAdxNOjvD0eJtROWU_Q,,&typo=1>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The claims are about important things. They say that the
>> sustainability rhetoric is so riddled with pie in the sky that it is not
>> clear that an analysis of what we can actually do would even support
>> goal-setting along the lines that are currently practiced. For certain
>> apps built on the libraries of sustainability, like the rhetoric of Green
>> New Deal, the most-central aspiration (not curtailing population and energy
>> consumption, and just replacing their sources) may actually be impossible
>> in the sense that perpetual motion machines are impossible. The other
>> important factor is that we don’t get the dodge “but in the long run”,
>> because the claim is that in a relatively short run we are all dead (or at
>> least a great many of us, and the rest have greatly reduced options for
>> what to do about anything).
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The important thing about the article (I know the author Rees) is
>> that it tries to back up its claims with analysis where possible. Some of
>> the citations I consider a bit dodgy, but others are probably sound. That
>> does _not_ mean I am claiming the conclusions of the paper are right. I
>> haven’t done any shred of the work it would take me to backfill that tree
>> of citations and take responsibility for deciding which of them I
>> understand to be right.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> It is also important (to me, for my own reasons) to say that I do
>> not mean _any_ blame for hypocrisy or bad faith toward a lot of the serious
>> sustainability people, or even the GND advocates. They work partly in a
>> realm of human persuasion, and they are trying not to let the perfect
>> undermine doing _something_ that might be good, or at least a little
>> better. I don’t know how many of the GND rhetoricians even have a detailed
>> understanding of our current situation, and among those (if there are
>> any), how many would agree that it is as bad as Rees asserts. There might
>> be some, who would still do what persuasion they can because they don’t
>> have ideas for what might be more helpful.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I should also add that there is a lot not covered in this particular
>> paper, where I have listened to claims of large unavoidable cascading
>> failures. Climate change leading to failure of Himalayan snowpacks that
>> are the headwaters of rivers that supply drinking water, sanitation,
>> irrigation, and hydropower to something like 1/4 of the world’s population,
>> through infrastructure that has been built over a century, and can’t simply
>> be moved or replaced. That stops working and people start moving, and then
>> all the stresses we already see around migration get amplified to much
>> higher levels. etc. Those, too, I have not tried to either evaluate or
>> get sources I can trust blindly. But if they are real, they belong in view
>> as well.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Finally, I want to distance myself a bit from the affect and some
>> overall impression in this piece, or by these authors. I have no interest
>> in whether something is heterodox or any other kind of dox. The
>> misanthropy that comes through in their scornful delivery in places, but
>> also their claim that there are “graceful” exits with so little as 1-child
>> policies, are to me departures (understandable, but still departures) from
>> the thing that makes the article valuable, which is the substance of its
>> claims about what exists and what can be assembled into systems. I think
>> one can keep the claims as important questions and let the other stuff go
>> its own ways.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Anyway, more than I know how to chew on,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Eric
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 11:47 AM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Well, except that this solipsism betrays a profound similarity
>> between the cheerful billionaire exploiter and the unfixable deplorables.
>> It's almost psychotically self-centered. I can imagine a slow, corrupting
>> process where I would if I could, as well. But that transformation would
>> have to be complete closure to prevent any light of empathy or sympathy
>> from peeking in and popping the boil.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I suppose people like Gates are more interesting than Musk,
>> shambling about extruding money according to an opaque template ... less
>> transparently ideological than Musk's profiteering. All philanthropy smacks
>> of this sort of thing, though, Effective Altruism being the worst of the
>> bunch. Power corrupts. It's not a lesson the non-powerful can actually
>> learn, though. So it's a good thing to keep around a nicely scaled
>> gradation of the super rich and the destitute poor, with some walkability
>> up and down the scale. That way we can, as a collective, re-learn the
>> lesson that power corrupts on a steady basis. The assumption of equality
>> prevents that lesson from being re-learned. The absurdity of philanthropy
>> and poverty are "collateral damage" in service of the latent trait, spoken
>> as a well-off white man born into a racist patriarchy, anyway.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On 1/21/22 08:31, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> >>>>>> If anything, Musk is suspicious because he is not overtly
>> apocalyptic. Some criticisms of Don’t Look Up were along the lines that
>> it fails to try to persuade a change of course in favor of being
>> condescending. That was the whole point of the movie: Comic relief
>> among the reasonable who must suffer those who are just unfixable. Musk is
>> amusing because he is cheerful going about his billionaire life as it all
>> comes crashing down. Doing what he can to profit from insane energy policy
>> of the last several generations and making what contingency plans he can.
>> I certainly would if I could.
>> >>>>>>> On Jan 21, 2022, at 7:48 AM, glen <gepropella at gmail.com <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com> <
>> mailto:gepropella at gmail.com <gepropella at gmail.com>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> This video essay concludes with the same point:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The Fake Futurism of Elon Musk
>> >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y> <
>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y>> <
>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <
>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y>>> <https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <
>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y <
>> https://youtu.be/5OtKEetGy2Y>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Perhaps a better title would have been "Muskian Futurism is
>> Eschatological". But there's some deeper stuff there in the middle of the
>> video about the appeal of geezers like Sanders to "the youth", perhaps
>> dovetailing with our prior discussion of the [opt|pess]imism vs
>> hope-despair plane. The mistake the Muskians seem to make is conflating
>> Musk's "apocalyptic help the rich survive the end times capitalism" with
>> the good old fashioned future orientation of classic science fiction ...
>> and, perhaps, even the optimistic glossing of the present by authors like
>> Steven Pinker. While Pinker seems to be a hypnotized neoliberal cultist,
>> his views still retain some sense of "shared values" in the Enlightenment,
>> where something, vague as it is, like equality founds the whole
>> perspective. Egalitarian utopias like Star Trek were, it seemed to me,
>> standard fare for classic sci-fi. Gibson, Blade Runner, et al turned that
>> dark and brought us (perhaps correlated with the rise of Hell and
>> >>>>>>> Brimstone Christianity) to Muskianism.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> But this is all just from my nostalgizing as a dying white man.
>> It would be interesting to see a disinterested historian present the
>> plectic arcs.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> On 1/20/22 14:33, glen wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> Even if there are multiple paths to nearly equivalent optima,
>> each unit (human, hospital, corporation, state) has to share some values
>> with the others in order for the the optima to be commensurate.
>> >>>>>>>
>>
>> --
>> glen
>> Theorem 3. There exists a double master function.
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 //bit.ly/virtualfriam
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>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6
>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2f%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,uX_37TNh5cREqt8MUbh7TD69tvxktp95IRUv_9WINJglXrTahRfs5G-X4F_LBzuwnQv6jF2f3KkUB0fu25-fEQjjKuat8Azpq9VJwYHyEQUWwQ,,&typo=1
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>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present
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>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,w_Fh7Js-h-uyQL8iV0dc18mFECmQYJs2TAnWu5wrtZ073OEUkGqwGpbRl3H97HAGBSRux6reWhEQen1I_Vh6ayezGaerpfA6070NYRncgbN-STh4kyA,&typo=1>
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>> archives:
>> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,TJON23j49DzQPEwidyWd3zn5fzmbn_wlED77-y8IfU5iwrEWaVyk7wxOQVRHsLoG1zr2PB8tdJrYOXM3MJTt5X01BZXffZ_h4n-bH23RfROMWqsLcFYKDSYxN6k,&typo=1>
>> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2f%2f%2fbit.ly%2fvirtualfriam&c=E,1,Vx8tCsRWcMFSEvapY_HyXE9Kq3b8um8h56eJuhXD9p4A1HUaYJ7pbFCAy-eS7vNSqWrmuMOeeurDZXCA2QsHfVBWBlJbB2rtCBNrf_EZzgbxhp_TfPdY9k1QtxJb&typo=1
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> archives:
> 5/2017 thru present
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fpipermail%2ffriam_redfish.com%2f&c=E,1,NGvsP5oBo16Yt4Avjl3R-ayF5KD3uysbk_ubu4nq9fVw2G2EuZCb5D6shNYCKqmyVh2B2R5cKJh5ZL7dYQBE3Gu7L4PxBFobiB_ljHPLby-wJuUI&typo=1
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn UTC-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:
> 5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
> 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
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