[FRIAM] Patriotic Millionaires

Mon Mar 7 14:33:18 EST 2022

Also great.  I understand that UCC is among the most universalist of the
denominations.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 12:14 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> Great.   My folks are in the UCC in Oregon, they are distributing money
> through a branch in Hungary.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam <friam-bounces at redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Monday, March 7, 2022 10:44 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam at redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Patriotic Millionaires
>
>
>
> FWIW my grandson Matthew's photo is on the front page of the Santa Fe New
> Mexican because of his work to send packages to Ukrainian refugees.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022, 11:04 AM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It's not clear to me if EricC is accidentally or purposefully distorting
> the message. In order for us to accuse the participants in Patriotic
> Millionaires (PM) of *not* supporting any given cause, we'd need to look at
> their individual philanthropy. Looking at the stances, lobbying, and
> messaging of PM is inadequate.
>
> E.g. If we took a look at an issue PM says is Good, a "value", and we
> examine the donations of all the PM participants and found that either a)
> they don't donate any of their money at all or b) they donate to everything
> except the values of the PM, *then* EricC's rhetoric would have some
> traction.
>
> Otherwise, what an org advocates is not, cannot ever be, identical to what
> its members advocate.
>
> I've done none of that work of comparing PM's advocacy/lobbying and its
> participants' actions. Perhaps others have?
>
> On 3/7/22 09:51, Eric Charles wrote:
> > Pick a cause if you want, or just send your money to the government if
> the
> > point is that you think the government should have it.  ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
> >
> > <echarles at american.edu>
> > A Javelin missile costs $175,203 according to Wikipedia. 4 years of
> college
> > education is cheaper than that at most institutions. *Any *millionaire
> > could just cover one of those, if they thought that was the best use of
> > their money. *Any *millionaire could cover 4 of them, and still have a
> > significantly higher net worth than the median American under 40. We need
> > to stop pretending otherwise. If someone has several million, they could
> > cover a whole lot more and still be doing just fine.
> >
> > "Look, man, I think helping kids go to college is a morally crucial
> > activity and that those who have an obligation to support it should do
> > so... But I won't help with that unless I know a legislature is forcing
> > lots of other people to help kids go to college!" Well.... ok.... but
> > that's a pretty shitty position to take.
> >
> > Maybe you think it's so important that you want to help yourself, and
> you *also
> > *you think others should be forced to help. Sure. I don't like that
> > position, but it is sensible, and you can morally ground it in all sorts
> of
> > ways. But no level of moral importance should exist as a category where
> you
> > won't help unless everyone else is forced to as well. Yes, people take
> that
> > position all the time. But it is a morally shitty position, and we should
> > treat it that way.
> >
> > Phrased differently: Having the government pick up the slack when
> > individual action is insufficient can often make sense. Claiming that
> only
> > government action should happen, and then acting as if that claim somehow
> > relieves individuals from any obligation to live up to their purported
> > moral values, is crap.
> >
> > If you think it is important to support local kids getting a college
> > education, then step up. You are in absolutely no sense "a bum" or "a
> > sucker" if you help someone afford a college education and your neighbor
> > doesn't. That's not how moral action works. Not at all. The correct
> > response to someone trying to act that way is to try to force them to
> admit
> > the obvious truth, which is that they have chosen not to support whatever
> > the cause is that is in question.
> >
> > Again, if they *are *supporting the cause, and adding on top of their
> > individual support a statement that they also think others should do
> more,
> > that's a much more defendable position. Statements like "I think the arts
> > should be supported, which is why I donated $XX,XXX to The Kennedy
> Center,
> > while lobbying my federal congressperson for more tax support" is
> perfectly
> > reasonable, as is "I think we need to better support local kids going to
> > college, which is why I provided 5 $X,XXX local-kid scholarships this
> local
> > high school graduates, while also talking with my state congressperson
> > about upping state funding to state schools."
> >
> > Do a survey of the "Patriotic Millionaires" and ask them how much more
> they
> > paid in taxes than what they owed. My guess is that you would find $0 as
> > the across the board answer. If it's not $0 across the board, certainly
> the
> > median will be $0.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 9:47 AM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Let’s say it is not a box of cookies but a four year college scholarship
> >> or a Javelin missile launcher.  The millionaire might be able to pay
> those
> >> individually, but no one else.  In that situation there is no sales for
> the
> >> individual girl scouts to perform.  At best a few heroic medium-sized
> >> donations.
> >>
> >> Some purchases will be out of reach without spreading the cost around,
> >> even over thousands of millionaires.
> >>
> >> On Mar 7, 2022, at 6:04 AM, Eric Charles <
> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Marcus,
> >> Let's say you have a neighbor who's always talking about wanting to
> >> support the girl scouts, and who even goes so far as to set up a web
> page
> >> about how important it is to support the girl scouts, and pays to have
> >> signs printed and distributed around town about how important it is to
> >> support girl scouts. You have a cousin in the girl scouts, so you send
> her
> >> over with the girl-scout cookie order form. The neighbor takes a look at
> >> the forms and tells your cousin "While I *do *think I should support
> girl
> >> scouts, I am not going to give you any money unless everyone else in the
> >> neighboorhood is forced to give you money too. Don't ask me to be a
> chump."
> >>
> >> What would we make of that?
> >>
> >>
> >> <echarles at american.edu>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 11:13 PM Marcus Daniels <marcus at snoutfarm.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Facebook had advertisements on TV for a few months talking about their
> >>> efforts to review content for fake news.   They advocated government
> >>> regulation.   Commonality being that a taxation or regulation impacts
> them
> >>> and their competitors in the same way, so their effective power and
> >>> influence won’t be negatively impacted.   “Don’t ask me to be a chump.”
> >>>
> >>> On Mar 6, 2022, at 8:02 PM, Eric Charles <
> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>> Frank,
> >>> That all seems 100% positive to me.
> >>>
> >>> Do you also routinely publicly complain about how legislatures are lax
> in
> >>> not forcing you to do more of that sort of thing, because you strongly
> >>> think that you should do more, but are unwilling to without the
> government
> >>> forcing you to?
> >>>
> >>> THAT is what the Patriotic Millionaires are doing.
> >>>
> >>> <echarles at american.edu>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022 at 9:43 PM Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I probably shouldn't volunteer to be a case in your argument but...
> >>>>
> >>>> I do make donations to universities and a church.  Today my wife and
> >>>> grandson Matthew assembled packages of hygiene products for Ukrainian
> >>>> refugees which included things like towels, toothpaste, toothbrushes,
> soap,
> >>>> shampoo etc.  This was done at United Church of Santa Fe.  As for
> financial
> >>>> contributions we spend $20k per year for tuition at Matthew's school
> which
> >>>> is a Montessori school for kids with executive function problems.
> There
> >>>> are a number of scholarship students whose families wouldn't be able
> to
> >>>> send their kids there without help.
> >>>>
> >>>> The church group put together 137 packages this morning.  We donated
> >>>> funds for the purchase of some of the stuff.
> >>>>
> >>>> Melinda Gates said that if you're a billionaire you can donate half of
> >>>> your assets without any impact on your lifestyle.  But that's a
> different
> >>>> question.
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> ---
> >>>> Frank C. Wimberly
> >>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> >>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >>>>
> >>>> 505 670-9918
> >>>> Santa Fe, NM
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 7:24 PM Eric Charles <
> >>>> eric.phillip.charles at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> While some of the goals of groups like "Patriotic Millionaires" are
> >>>>> admirable, I can never get past the blatant hypocrisy of it all.
> Maybe
> >>>>> "hypocrisy" isn't exactly the right term. You could also see the part
> >>>>> that bugs me as a bizarre worship of the benefits of authority over
> >>>>> individual choice. Let me rephrase their primary claim: "I, as a rich
> >>>>> person, recognize that I really *should *give more of my money to
> >>>>> certain causes, but I adamantly refuse to do so unless forced to do
> so by
> >>>>> the federal legislature."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> What is anyone really to make of that position? Is it any different
> >>>>> than trying to look virtuous by saying that you know you should stop
> using
> >>>>> child labor in your mine, while also publicly refusing to stop
> unless the
> >>>>> government makes you?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2022 at 3:08 PM glen <gepropella at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Obviously, I'm either procrastinating or unclear on how best to do
> >>>>>> actual work today because here is yet another thing I meant to talk
> about
> >>>>>> with someone, anyone, awhile back:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://patrioticmillionaires.org/about/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> A salon participant recently asked whether "greed" was our most
> >>>>>> nefarious trait as a species. It's a great question for sparking
> >>>>>> discussion. My answer was that the most nefarious trait of *all*
> species is
> >>>>>> myopia, the inability to reason over externalities, from pond scum
> to the
> >>>>>> Trust <https://raised-by-wolves.fandom.com/wiki/Trust>. But to
> >>>>>> de-emphasize what people think of as "greed", I said "Trying to
> ensure you
> >>>>>> have enough money to live out your life in relative comfort is not
> greed.
> >>>>>> Greed is, after acquiring billions of dollars, you feel the need to
> acquire
> >>>>>> more billions of dollars."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I found Patriotic Millionaires prior to that conversation. And it
> >>>>>> seems legit ... a set of outwardly greedy people who recognize
> limits to
> >>>>>> their greed ... a recognition that there's a spectrum of merit,
> some luck,
> >>>>>> some effort, some systemic infrastructure, etc. Overall,
> [m|b]illionaire
> >>>>>> philanthropy (and especially effective altruism) seem like jokes to
> me,
> >>>>>> very postmodern jokes. "Here, let me given you a billion dollars
> without
> >>>>>> fundamentally rewriting your genetic code." Pffft. Give anyone
> enough money
> >>>>>> and you'll corrupt them fundamentally, often against their will.
> >>>>>> Philanthropists know this. Effective Altruism is an oxymoron. You
> can't
> >>>>>> both be coercive and altruistic at the same time. >8^D
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Anyway, I'd welcome any opinion on Patriotic Millionaires.
>
> --
> glen
> When elephants fight, it is the grass that suffers.
>
>
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