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<p>Gil -</p>
<p>I'll reply more off-list. I was mostly trying to acknowledge to
you that we (or at least I) recognize that you are acutely
struggling right now, but that it may also be a "good sign" if it
is helping you to seek changes, etc.</p>
<p>My typical anecdotal story about my own challenges when dealing
with "systems" and the people stuck in them trying to execute what
sometimes are contradictory rules or policies was intended to
hopefully help you realize that while you are the one seeming to
get the bad end of things in any given moment, one can also
imagine how much it must "suck to be them", even if it isn't
obvious what *they* are facing which seems to lead them to be rude
or just plain dysfunctional.</p>
<p>Anyway, I'll follow up off list with some specific ideas, etc.</p>
<p>- Steve<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 7/14/18 10:23 AM, Gillian Densmore
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMaMUCRpuKzpS5NhfqOp+c56P1z30grfTU1EL=4gcC7Yo45ixw@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">Steve if it's a "sudden" riff of questions it's
because I honestly genuinly don't know what else to do to find
the rescources I need: I've NEVER on this or any other list
consously said (I hope) I simply don't know. Yeah i'm in my
"late" (humoursl voice VERY late) 30's): because just say
certain fam members reasonably don't know what the heck to do
given a rif that's not at all apropiate for this list: I can not
rely on them. I do not want to lean on them. So I am all due to
some on this list pulling a start-rek trek. I do not want this
to be read as sarcastic:
<div>I simply genuinly don't know what else to do, or why it
might be weird to say: Uh advice please! What ever I was
doing before simply isn't working I need some guidance, and
advice. I am not at all trying to come off as throwing this
in anyones face!</div>
<div>I have no idea why it took so long for me to push my
comfort zones and want to have friends. No it may not have
started as a support group. I do consider many on the list at
least aquaintences some strait up friends: Nick and Kim (I
have no idea if Kim Sorvice ist still subbed)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What all that said:: I for one hit a wall and fell appart
I'll leave what between family and a theriapist. I have never
denied I go to those and sorting what the what wrong or very
right for the real pros.</div>
<div>The observation was simply huh weird do people really find
it so weird for a stranger to open doors for them when they
have their hands for with groceries (that's a real example)?
oO</div>
<div>And while at the doctors office someone acted like In
vented the chevy volt or hydrogen feul cell: oh sorry sir you
can go first.</div>
<div>*shruging* no I don't expect to be "budy budy" with a
doctor. I DO however think it's reasonable that a pro at least
be cordial, not complain about the clock, or that I clearly
need and stil need a bit of TLC' That's what those kind of
pros are for.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am trying to find the right places for a Re-do. </div>
<div>I'm sorry if it came off as a flood or riff for needing and
wanting some guidance from people that might have vastly more
experience than I do in those areas. Hell that horribly
laacking resrouce can well be: oh have tried (forum here) I
found them really great for (stuff here)?!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did ask presbytarian because---bluntly I've had enought
of Saint Vincents being jerks about routine questions.So why
not ask for others experience? is that not a good idea? oO</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 10:26 AM,
Steven A Smith <span dir="ltr"><<a
href="mailto:sasmyth@swcp.com" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">sasmyth@swcp.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote">Gil -<br>
<br>
I am intuiting from your current riff of questions/anecdotes
here, that<br>
you are feeling out of sorts on many fronts. With a
significant<br>
engagement with the health-care system, THAT interface is an
important<br>
one for you and is broadly, if not categorically not working
for you<br>
right now... various providers and interface staff are not
responding<br>
well to you and it is adding to your "out of sortiness".
It sounds<br>
like a positive feedback loop, where you are anticipating
being<br>
mishandled and sending signals that lead staff/providers to
then go off<br>
their normal "bedside manner game" in some way or another
which just<br>
reinforces your feelings of being mishandled, etc. I don't
mean to<br>
"blame the victim"... just pointing out that you are
probably<br>
participating in the breakdown in some way which you might
be able to<br>
change and get a better result.<br>
<br>
I have any number of "service" interactions which I know I
don't handle<br>
well by my nature. I don't engage in the health care
system much at<br>
all (sometimes avoiding for decades) for this reason... I
find the whole<br>
paradigm flawed and I wear that on my sleeve when I *do*
engage and THAT<br>
naturally puts some of the people I'm interacting with
off. Similarly<br>
I have to be thoughtful/careful when I try to buy technology
(in person)<br>
or seek repair or parts for my technology. I used to have
lots of<br>
problems with cell phone companies (who doesn't?). I often
have trouble<br>
with ISPs... and all because I often *do* know more about
their<br>
technologies and service than the average customer, and
maybe (in some<br>
cases) "just enough to get me in trouble", or at least
enough to<br>
irritate the first line service/sales people trying to just
get through<br>
their day and sell/install/service 100 more commodity (to
them) items.<br>
<br>
Our "service" and "care" systems are optimized to deliver
their services<br>
on *their model* and they appear very fragile if you try to
get them to<br>
interact on YOUR model. <br>
<br>
Even fast food... "have it your way" is a little like Henry
Ford's "you<br>
can have your Model-T in any color you want as long as it is
black". <br>
Many can handle simple substitutions/deletions but that is
about it. <br>
When I was a young vegetarian I learned to order a
"cheeseburger, hold<br>
the meat, and if the cook can handle it, toast the bun
upside down".... <br>
What I often got was the "grilled cheese sandwich with
lettuce, tomato,<br>
pickle" I wanted but was not on their menu. I don't think I
*ever* got a<br>
grilled cheese just by asking for it if it wasn't on their
menu, but<br>
nobody ever turned me down on deleting the meat from a
cheeseburger. If<br>
the place had served me before it usually went easy and the
bun was<br>
usually toasted and "inside out" as I asked. Sometimes I
paid full<br>
price for a burger, other times they followed the formula
for what an<br>
extra patty would cost and I'd end up with the grilled
cheese at a steep<br>
discount: "$2.50 for the cheeseburger - $1.00 for the
patty... that will<br>
be $1.00+ tax!" If they were busy, I would just come back
another<br>
time... it wasn't in my interest to stress their system for
my quirky<br>
preferences. Today it would be gluten-free, keto-friendly,<br>
paleo-compliant, non-gmo, grass-fed-dairy... and $15.<br>
<br>
TLDR: (Auto Mechanic Anecdote) I had the same problem with
auto repair<br>
until I recognized what I was doing and made a very acute
effort to meet<br>
them on *their turf*. Until I started a 60 mile RT daily
commute I had<br>
done most if not all of my own car repair, up to and
including swapping<br>
out engines and replacing stripped gears in transmissions.
I was not an<br>
expert, but for other shadetree mechanics here, you may know
that the <br>
resources are amazing at some level... half the parts you
need are<br>
already stocked at a store nearby and they can get virtually
any other<br>
within hours or days just by specifying the details of the
vehicle and<br>
it's subsystem... third party manuals (Haynes/Chiltons)
are far from<br>
perfect but once you find a good one for your vehicle.. and
if that<br>
isn't good enough... dealer service manuals are available
for about the<br>
price of an hour or three of shop time from a real mechanic,
etc. The<br>
bottom line was that I *thought* I knew more about my
vehicle than the<br>
mechanic (well, in some ways I did) and I wanted him to
start with MY<br>
diagnosis and MY preferred solution when it just didn't fit
his<br>
paradigm. Generally mechanics don't trust civilians to
know their cars<br>
and the subsystems and diagnose them well, and in fact, if I
hadn't dug<br>
into the problem up to my armpits myself, I was often
guessing (and<br>
guessing wrong) based on superficial symptoms. In any
case, they<br>
almost always disappointed me with their bedside manner...
they didn't<br>
want to listen to what I already knew about the problem and
they REALLY<br>
didn't want to listen to my repair suggestions. They were
usually<br>
superficially polite but my empathetic self had me radiating
my own<br>
hostility or doubt in them I suspect. Eventually I tried a
mechanic<br>
that was known to me, very convenient and with a generally
good<br>
reputation and I backed off and put my vehicles in their
hands. I let<br>
them change oil, rotate tires, top off fluids, etc. and I
let THEM<br>
tell me when they noticed a growing problem (e.g. oil leaks,
bad tread<br>
wear patterns, etc) and they proved quickly to me that THEY
were as<br>
competent as I (or more) to notice growing problems and
recognize<br>
reasonable solutions. I occasionally mention things to them
to look at,<br>
but unless the symptoms are acute, I leave it to them to
notice and they<br>
(almost) always do! They have better shop manuals and better
tools<br>
(especially a lift in a heated space) and extra hands when a
job is<br>
easier with two people. I paid $50/hour (the good ole
days) for them<br>
to do things I felt I could do in half (in reality, twice)
the time and<br>
it irritated me, but almost exclusively, they *never* lied
to me or<br>
mislead me. Previous mechanics I'd tried this with would do
a job or<br>
two OK then they would tell me something I knew was patently
false<br>
(e.g." you need a new clutch slave cylinder" on a vehicle I
knew to have<br>
a mechanical linkage). In retrospect, I don't think they
were trying<br>
to cheat me, but might have been being lazy or sloppy...
they may have<br>
"guessed" at something without looking closely, not
realizing that *my*<br>
model had a different subsystem than the one they were most
familiar<br>
with, or they cross-remembered another vehicle, or ??? In
any case, I<br>
would go away mad and go back to not trusting mechanics,
etc. <br>
<br>
Today it has been almost 20 years I've been with my primary
mechanic...<br>
his son has taken over (most of) the business and they know
all my<br>
vehicles by heart and are happy to do pre-purchase
inspections on new<br>
ones I am considering. Some problems and vehicles I don't
bring to<br>
them because they aren't familiar with them. I don't
expect them to<br>
work on the hybrid components of my Gen1 Hybrid Insight and
I don't ask<br>
them to do much on my 1949 Ford Dump (though they do like
the truck, it<br>
doesn't fit in their bays easily and can only be raised
about 3 feet on<br>
their lifts, and parts are *very* hard to get, complicated
by the fact<br>
the engine is from an early 60's ford farm equipment and
while a<br>
standard Ford design, has oddities specific to the
tractor/thresher/???<br>
it was pulled from. I only asked them to try to tune the
mechanical<br>
fuel injection on my mid-80s VW Cabriolet once... then did
it myself<br>
after not finding an obvious mechanic with specific
familiarity. I'm<br>
in the midst of trying to get a new (used) 20Kwh hybrid
battery<br>
installed in my 2011 Chevy Volt. It weighs 400 lbs,
carries 360V when<br>
energized, has sophisticated battery management subsystems
and<br>
integrating systems internal and external to it, and has to
interface to<br>
a number of computerized subsystems including the main
computer, the<br>
ECU, a charging control system, etc. The service manager
at the dealer<br>
is waaaay over his head on this project and I get the sense
that the<br>
factory trained tech (for this specific model) has not had
occasion to<br>
ever remove or replace (or diagnose beyond pulling DTC codes
from the<br>
main computer). But I know I am at their mercy. The
vehicle<br>
subsystems are so specific to GM that (almost literally?)
nobody except<br>
GM dealers have the specialized tools and computer
codes/software to<br>
handle the re-energizing/calibrating of a battery. The
physical<br>
aspects of swapping the battery are daunting enough,
especially without<br>
a lift, and I wouldn't expect ANY sane mechanic with a lift,
etc. to<br>
want to mess with this HV system. I have done enough
hybrid/EV/HV<br>
electronics work to feel I could do it safely myself, but it
would be<br>
only *my life* on the line. So I had to talk the service
manager<br>
through discovering that his Volt trained technician *could*
install a<br>
battery not provided by GM directly (a very few others have
done this<br>
around the US) and come up with the shop hours (7@$111) for
the<br>
procedure so I could order up a salvaged one (from a
low-mileage<br>
recently wrecked vehicle) to be delivered to them by
freight. (BTW, a<br>
NEW (refurbished?) GM Battery System is $8K retail plus
installation).<br>
<br>
I'm sure the service manager was frustrated with me *many*
times along<br>
the way and his demeanor often left me wanting to cop my own
attitude<br>
and "go away mad". I think now that we are at the point of
having<br>
scheduled the work and the battery is en-route... he has
become<br>
intrigued by the project and probably wants to see it
succeed rather<br>
than just "wanting me to go away" which is how I felt
through more than<br>
a little of the process. And *I was aware* of the pitfalls
of wanting<br>
non-standard things that I have more knowledge about than
the service<br>
providers and I *still* stressed them almost to their
limit. I *wanted*<br>
to blame them and be angry and resentful, but I had to
acknowledge that<br>
my kind of task is NOT their bread and butter, that the
individuals (and<br>
the whole system) has to see an upside to working with me
before they<br>
are going to be willing, much less positive about it.<br>
<br>
Gil... YOU may be the Chevy Volt of the human world. Your
needs may be<br>
unusual enough that it is *hard* for the standard systems to
meet you on<br>
their terms and as you probably already know/guess, it
really is up to<br>
you to understand what the system is capable of and how to
meet it on<br>
terms where neither you nor they are too stressed by the
interface to<br>
function properly. I don't know you *well* but believe you
to have the<br>
self-awareness to find productive ways to change your<br>
interface/expectations enough to begin to reduce the stress
you are<br>
feeling right now. Your other stated activities (hiking,
gym, dancing,<br>
etc.) seem like very positive directions to help you
regulate (physical<br>
activity is almost always a positive thing for virtually
everyone) and<br>
find new and varied friends and interests. I don't make
it to WedTech<br>
often (annually if lucky?) but next time I'm in town with
some time on<br>
my hands, maybe we can get together for a bite or some
coffee or tea and<br>
we can bore (entertain?) one another with anecdotes about
trying to<br>
interface with a world of commodity objects and services.<br>
<br>
- Steve<br>
<br>
<br>
On 7/13/18 9:20 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> Perhaps the first step needs to be "How sensitive is
this patient to bedside manner?", and from that estimate
then prioritize the relative timing of one sort of analysis
over another. I assume I'm dealing with an intelligent, if
imperfect, person. I think it takes some self-control to
be a good patient, too.<br>
><br>
> On 7/13/18, 9:13 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄ uǝʃƃ" <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> on
behalf of <a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Perhaps. But if that's the case, I would
immediately leave and find another Dr. As I explained
before, and is peppered throughout Renee's training, the
"assessment of the patient", which involves really *looking*
at the patient, is more powerful than any other (set of)
metric(s).<br>
> <br>
> To be clear, the patient assessment machine can be
completely autistic. But they must "assess the patient" by
looking at her. <br>
> <br>
> On 07/13/2018 08:06 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:<br>
> > Is it not possible the doctor looking at her
computer is just like Glen listening to music without
moving? Focusing on the facts of the matter and not on
distracting emotional signals? <br>
> > <br>
> > On 7/13/18, 9:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of ∄
uǝʃƃ" <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a> on
behalf of <a href="mailto:gepropella@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">gepropella@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > For what it's worth, my Dr. thanked me
after our 1st interaction. He walked in with his laptop,
sat down and started poking at it. I then used my
familiarity with electronic medical records (I was a product
mgr at such a company at one point) to finagle his attention
and demonstrate our mutual affinity for how computation can
help him provide good healthcare. I even explained how I'd
looked him up online beforehand and knew all the schools he
went to and that he had no active malpractice suits against
him. (Which was no small feat since he's an immigrant from
India.)<br>
> > <br>
> > That interaction successfully grabbed his
attention. Perhaps, since you're also computer literate,
you could use the same trick next time a Dr's attention is
too focused on the computer?<br>
> > <br>
> > On 07/13/2018 07:48 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
> > > It is a bigger problem that people
are more concerned about `getting along’ than they are about
maintaining a functional government.<br>
> > > As for doctors, I don’t want them to
my friend. I want them to take their limited time and
focus their extensive training, to rationalize the symptoms
I present.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > From: Friam <<a
href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>>
on behalf of Gillian Densmore <<a
href="mailto:gil.densmore@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">gil.densmore@gmail.com</a>><br>
> > > Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
> > > Date: Friday, July 13, 2018 at 8:39
AM<br>
> > > To: The Friday Morning Applied
Complexity Coffee Group <<a
href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" moz-do-not-send="true">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] Weird observation<br>
> > > <br>
> > > While at doctor's office trying ask a
nurse to politely express to a doctor that it comes off as
rude when that doc is obssed with a computer gets a reaction
like you've invented warp drive.<br>
> > > <br>
> > > Is it really that unusual for people
to try to actively be cordial these days? If so captian we
got a problem!<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> ∄ uǝʃƃ<br>
> <br>
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