<div dir="auto">Frank confirms.  Here is a conversation between Nick and me that occurred at least ten years ago:<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">N. Hunger is eating or food-seeking behavior.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">F. No, hunger is what I feel when I'm hungry.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Note:. Nick feels(!) that circularity is a Mortal Sin.</div><div dir="auto"><br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">-----------------------------------<br>Frank Wimberly<br><br>My memoir:<br><a href="https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly">https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly</a><br><br>My scientific publications:<br><a href="https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2">https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2</a><br><br>Phone (505) 670-9918</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 4:10 PM Nick Thompson <<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net">nickthompson@earthlink.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class="m_-668909745477236587WordSection1"><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Hi, Glen, <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">I realize I am about to make you grumpy and I HATE when I do that.  But ... I think (perhaps Frank will confirm) that I am a person who does not believe in qualia.  Let's see.  I will check my behavior and see.  OH, yes.  I have written: <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:6.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:5.8pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">Devil’s advocate: <i>If feelings are something that one does, rather than something that one “has <span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt">inside,” </span>then the right sort of robot should be capable<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>feeling<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>when<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>does<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>sorts<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>things<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>humans<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>do<span style="letter-spacing:-.45pt"> </span>when we say that humans are feeling something. Are you prepared to live with  that<span style="letter-spacing:1.2pt"> </span>implication?</i></span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-left:24.0pt;text-align:justify;line-height:12.65pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#231f20">Sure.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#231f20">Devil’s advocate: <i>So a robot could be made that would feel pain?</i></span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:5.85pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:12.0pt;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.3pt">Well,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">you<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">are</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">cheating</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>bit,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>because<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">are</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.1pt">asking</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>me<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-1.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">participate </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>word<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>game<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>have<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>already<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>disavowed,<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>game<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>which<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>pain<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>is something<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>inside<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>my<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>brain<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>use<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>my<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>pain-feelers<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>palpate<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>(see also<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span>Natsoulas,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">this</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">volume).</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.65pt">To</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span>me,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span>pain<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span>an<span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">emergency</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">organization </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">my</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">behavior</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">which</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">deploy</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">physical</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>social<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">defenses</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.9pt"> </span>various sorts.<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.4pt">You</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>show<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>me<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>robot<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>part<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>society<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>robots,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.1pt"> </span>becomes frantic<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>when<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>break<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>some<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>part<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>it,<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>calls<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>upon<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>its<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>fellow<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>robots<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>to assist,<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>etc.,<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>will<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>be<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>happy<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>admit<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.75pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">“paining.”</span></span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:5.7pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">Devil’s advocate: <i>On your account, nonsocial animals don’t feel pain?</i></span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:5.75pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:12.0pt;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.2pt">Well,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">not<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>same<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>sort<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>pain.<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>Any<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>creature<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>struggles<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>when you do <span style="letter-spacing:.15pt">something </span>to it <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">is </span><span style="letter-spacing:.15pt">“paining” </span>in <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">some </span><span style="letter-spacing:.15pt">sense. </span>But <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">animals </span>that have the potential to summon help seem to pain in a different <span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt">way.</span></span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:5.95pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.15pt">Devil’s</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">advocate:<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span><i>But,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>Nick,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">while</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">“paining”</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>sounds<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>nice<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>an<span style="letter-spacing:-1.2pt"> </span>academic <span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">paper, </span>it is just silly otherwise. The other day I felt quite nauseous after a meal. I am interested in what <span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt">it’s   </span><span style="letter-spacing:.7pt"> </span>like to feel nauseous, and you</i></span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" align="right" style="margin-right:5.95pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:7.45pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:right"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;color:#231f20">237</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p></div><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"><br clear="all" style="page-break-before:always"></span></b><div class="m_-668909745477236587WordSection2"><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:6.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:5.85pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:101%"><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">cannot honestly claim that you don’t know what feeling nauseous is like. Behavioral correlates aren’t at issue; stop changing the subject.</span></i></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:5.85pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:12.0pt;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">What<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>“being<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>nauseous”<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>like?<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt">It’s</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>like<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>being<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>on<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>small<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>boat<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt"> </span>a choppy<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>sea,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt">it’s</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>like<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>being<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>world<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>revolving<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>when<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>others<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>see it<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>as<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>stable,<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt">it’s</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>like<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>being<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>gray<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>face<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>turning<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>away<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>from<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>the sights and smells of food that others find attractive, <span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt">it’s </span>like having your<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>head<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>toilet<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>when<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>others<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>have<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>theirs<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt"> </span>refrigerator.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:5.65pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:12.0pt;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">But you have brought us to the <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">crux </span>of the problem. Nobody<span style="letter-spacing:-1.35pt"> </span>has ever been satisfied with my answers to these “What is it like to be a<u>                </u>?”<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>questions.<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>“What<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>like<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>be<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>in<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>pain?<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>What<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.2pt"> </span>like</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">to be a bat? What is it like to be Nick Thompson?” Notice how the grammar is contorted. If you ask the question in its natural <span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">order, </span>you begin to <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">see </span>a path to an answer. “What is being Nick Thompson like?” <span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">“It’s </span>like running around like a chicken with its head cut <span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt">off.” </span><span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">OK. </span>I get that. I <span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">see </span>me doing that. <span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt">You </span><span style="letter-spacing:.1pt">see</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.95pt"> </span>me doing that. But most<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>people<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">won’t</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>be<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>satisfied<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>with<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>sort<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>answer,<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span>because<span style="letter-spacing:-.25pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">it’s </span>the same as the answer to the question, “What do people like Nick Thompson<span style="letter-spacing:-1.0pt"> </span><i>do</i>?”<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>and<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>therefore<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>appears<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>convey<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>no<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>information<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>that is<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>inherently<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>private.<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.55pt">To</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>me,<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>question,<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>“What<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>it<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>like<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span>be<span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.5pt">X?”, </span>has<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>been<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>fully<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>answered<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>when<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>have<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>said<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>where<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>X-like<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>people<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>can be found and what they will be doing there. However, I seem to be pretty alone in that<span style="letter-spacing:-1.35pt"> </span>view.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-right:5.65pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">Devil’s<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>advocate:<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span><i>Now<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>see<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>why<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>annoy<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>people.<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>I<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>ask<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.8pt"> </span>perfectly straightforward question about the quality of an experience and you keep trying to saddle me with a description of a behavior. <span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt">You </span>just change the subject. <span style="letter-spacing:-.3pt">You </span>clearly understand me when I ask you about the<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>quality<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">feeling</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>nauseous,<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>yet<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>answer<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">like</span><span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>person<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span>who<span style="letter-spacing:-.85pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">doesn’t </span>understand.</i></span></b><b><i><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></i></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoBodyText" style="margin-right:5.8pt;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:12.0pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:justify;text-indent:12.0pt;line-height:101%"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.2pt">Well,</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20;letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%;color:#231f20">here<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>you<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>just<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>prove<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>my<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>point<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>by<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>refusing<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>believe<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>me<span style="letter-spacing:-.9pt"> </span>when I<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>say<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>for<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>me,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>feeling<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>is<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>a<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>kind<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>doing,<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>an<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>exploring<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-1.15pt"> </span>world. Where does somebody who believes that mental states are private, and<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>that<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>each<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>person<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>has<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>privileged<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>access<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>their<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>own<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>mental<span style="letter-spacing:-.95pt"> </span>states, stand<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>to<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>deny<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span><i>me<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span></i>my<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>account<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>of<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span><i>my<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>own<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span></i>mental<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>states?<span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.35pt">You</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span><span style="letter-spacing:-.15pt">can’t</span><span style="letter-spacing:-1.25pt"> </span>have it<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>both<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>ways—you<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>have<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>run<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>smack-dab<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>into<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>the<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>ultimate<span style="letter-spacing:-.6pt"> </span>foolishness of your<span style="letter-spacing:-1.45pt"> </span>position.</span></b><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt;line-height:101%"><u></u><u></u></span></b></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Gee.  I guess I don’t believe in qualia.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Nick <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Nicholas S. Thompson<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Clark University<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] On Behalf Of u?l? ?<br>Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 4:50 PM<br>To: FriAM <<a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">friam@redfish.com</a>><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?</p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">In an attempt to avoid a descent into arguing about the meanings of words, it seems reasonable enough to say that whatever plants may or may not feel, what they feel will result in wildly different qualia than what we experience.  Right?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">So, we don't have to argue about whether plants feel pain.  We can argue about the extent of the similarity between plants' vs. animals' enteroception. <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">On 09/17/2018 01:37 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> So, David,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> A tree, when assaulted by caterpillars, alters its physiology to produce toxins (at cost to its growth) and puts out chemicals to alert neighboring trees which do the same.  <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> On what basis exactly do you assert that trees don't feel pain.  <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">> I stipulate that this question is asked by a person who doesn't think humans "feel pain".  There aren’t two steps, pain and the feeling of it.   <u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">--<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif">☣</span> uǝlƃ<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">============================================================<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p><p class="m_-668909745477236587MsoPlainText">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove<u></u><u></u></p></div></div>============================================================<br>
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</blockquote></div>