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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoPlainText>Glen, <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>When my wife discovers that I am NOT in here packing up for our flight to SF, there will be hell to pay. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>But ....<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>You write:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b><i>By "self-measurable", I mean things like grabbing your elbow with your other hand ... or poking yourself in the eye. No magical psychological terms are needed. 8^) And I totally accept your "all perception is 'other-perception'"; and this formulation allows that because it is one PART measuring anOTHER part.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText><i>Au contraire! </i>This is totally magical, but still very interesting. I suggest that you conduct the following series of experiences.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><b><i><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>(1)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></i></b><![endif]><b><i>With the pad of your right index finger, feel the surface of your desk.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><b><i><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>(2)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></i></b><![endif]><b><i>With the pad of your right index finger, feel the hair on your other arm.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><b><i><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>(3)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></i></b><![endif]><b><i>With the pad of your right index finger, feel the palm of your left hand.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><b><i><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>(4)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></i></b><![endif]><b><i>With the pad of your right index finger, feel the pad of your left index finger.<o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><b><i><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>(5)<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></i></b><![endif]><b><i>Now, without changing the motions you are making, feel the pad of your right index finger with the pad of your left. <o:p></o:p></i></b></p><p class=MsoPlainText>(};-o]><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nick <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Nicholas S. Thompson<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Clark University<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] On Behalf Of u?l? ?<br>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2018 1:53 PM<br>To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] do animals psychologize?</p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>On 09/19/2018 10:25 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> I don’t think you comments below (see larding) take adequate account of the arguments found in my /Many Perils of Ejective Anthropomorphism <<a href="https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311349078_The_many_perils_of_ejective_anthropomorphism"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>https://www.researchgate.net/publication/311349078_The_many_perils_of_ejective_anthropomorphism</span></a>>, /where I try to understand what people mean by introspection and ultimately conclude that the whole idea is incoherent. All perception is “other-perception” by definition. This truism applies equally to organisms and computers:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>[sigh] OK. I'll restate without the controversial word "introspection".<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>If psychologizing is the inference to a partly unobservable, yet self-measurable, internal state of another organism, then it requires the (≥2) organisms to have these features:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>1) a systemic state like that glutamate/calcium messaging system that produces a (partly) observable behavior,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>2) a self-perceptive structure that responds to that systemic state, and<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>3) an other-perceptive structure capable of perceiving others' behaviors and inferring/mapping to their own internal states.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>By "self-measurable", I mean things like grabbing your elbow with your other hand ... or poking yourself in the eye. No magical psychological terms are needed. 8^) And I totally accept your "all perception is 'other-perception'"; and this formulation allows that because it is one PART measuring anOTHER part.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> And here, only a few days ago, we were blood brothers. (};-)]<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Heh, you don't want to mix with my immortal lymphocytes with their mutated sequences!<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>> By the way. I am thinking of growing a beard. It would look like: (};-)]> . What do you think? It makes my face look longer.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Everyone who has working follicles, wherever they *are* should allow those follicles to express themselves. So, grow 'em if you got 'em! At my 20 year high school reunion (remember I'm from Texas), several of the people who thought we were friends yet I hadn't spoken to in ... 20 years ... remarked on my bald head and fairly long "mullet". One guy asked "So, what's with the hair?" My response was the same as the above. You fascists trying to *groom* your poor hair with arbitrary snips and clips are embarrassing those of us who are comfortable flying our freak flag(s).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>--<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><span style='font-family:"Segoe UI Symbol",sans-serif'>☣</span> uǝlƃ<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>============================================================<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoPlainText>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>