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<body><div style="font-family:Arial;">Nick,<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Alas, I was not present to hear the inchoate discussion. Please allow me to do some deconstruction and speculation on what you might be asking about.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Imagine a vertical line and assume, metaphorically, that this is a 'membrane' consisting of tiny devices that emit signals (electrical impulses) into that which we presume to be 'inside that membrane'. I am trying to abstract the common sense notion of an individual's 5 senses generating signals that go to the brain — without making too many assumptions about the signal generators and or the recipient of same.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">We tend to assume that the signal generators are not just randomly sending off signals. Instead we assume that somewhere on the left side of the line is a source of stimuli, each of which triggers a discrete signal generator which we rename as a sensor.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">First question: do you assume / assert / argue that the "source" of each stimulus (e.g. the Sun) and the means of conveying the stimulus (e.g. a Photon) are "Real?"<br></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Signals are generated at the membrane and sent off somewhere towards the right. <br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Second question: do you assume a receiver of those signals, e.g. a 'brain-body', and do you assume / argue / assert that the receiving entity is "Real."<br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If a signal is received by a brain-body and it reacts, e.g. a muscle contraction; there are least two possible assumptions you can make:<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"> - some sort of 'hard wiring' exists that routes the signal to a set of muscle cells which contract; and nothing has happened except the completion of a circuit. Or,<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"> - the signal is "interpreted" in some fashion and the response to it is at least quasi-voluntary. (Yogis and fakirs have demonstrated that very little of what most of us would assume to be involuntary reactions, are, in fact, beyond conscious control.)<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Third question: are both the 'interpretation' and the 'response' Real things?<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Depending on your answers, we might have a model of interacting "Real" things: Source, Stimulus, Membrane, Signal, Interpretation, and Response. Or, you might still wish to assert that all of these are "abstractions," but if so, I really do not understand at all what you would mean by the term.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">But, you are an amenable chap and might assent to considering these things "Real" in some sense, so we can proceed.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">The next step would be to question the existence of some entity receiving the signals, effecting the interpretation, and instigating the response. Let's call it a Mind or Consciousness. [Please keep the frustrated screaming to a minimum.]<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">It seems to me that this step is necessary, as it is only "inside" the mind that we encounter abstractions. The abstractions might be unvoiced behaviors — interpretations of an aggregate of stimuli as a "pattern" with a reflexive response, both of which were non-consciously learned, e.g. 'flight or fight'. Or, they might be basic naming; simple assertions using the verb to-be; or complicated and convoluted constructs resulting from judicious, or egregious, application of induction, deduction, and abduction.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Fourth question: are these in-the-mind abstractions "Real?"<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">At the core, your question seems to be an ontological / metaphysical one. Are there two kinds of Thing: Real and Abstract? If so what criteria is used to define membership in the two sets? It seems like your anti-dualism is leading you to assert that there are not two sets, but one and that membership in that set is defined by some criteria/characteristic of 'abstract-ness'.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Please correct my failings at discerning the true nature of your question.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">dave west<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Thu, Dec 20, 2018, at 10:00 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Hi, Everybody,</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Yes. St. Johns Coffee Shop WILL be open this Friday. And then, not again until the 3<sup>rd</sup> of January. I am hoping Frank will have some ideas for what we do on the Friday between the two holidays. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Attached please find the copy of an article you helped me write. Thanks to all of you who listened patiently and probed insistently as I worked though the issues of this piece.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I need help with another article I am working with. Last week I found myself making, and defending against your uproarious laughter, the proposition that all real things are abstract. Some of you were prepared to declare the opposite, No real things are abstract. However, it was late in the morning and the argument never developed. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I would argue the point in the following way: Let us say that we go along with your objections and agree that “you can never step in the same river twice.” This is to say, that what we call “The River” changes every time we step in it. Wouldn’t it follow that any conversation we might have about The River is precluded? We could not argue, for instance, about whether the river is so deep that we cannot cross o’er because there is no abstract fact, “The River” that connects my crossing with yours. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Let’s say, then, that you agree with me that implicit in our discussions of the river is the abstract conception of The River. But, you object, that we assume it, does not make it true. Fair enough. But why then, do we engage in the measurement of anything? </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">I realize this is not everybody’s cup of tea for a conversation, but I wanted to put it on the table.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Nick</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt">Clark University</span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"><a style="text-decoration: underline; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="font" style="font-family:"Calibri", sans-serif"><span class="size" style="font-size:11pt"> </span></span><br></p></div>
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