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<div>Is FRIAM meeting this morning?</div><div><br></div>
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On Wednesday, January 2, 2019, 3:55:03 PM MST, <friam-request@redfish.com> wrote:
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<div><div dir="ltr">Send Friam mailing list submissions to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div><div dir="ltr">or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:friam-request@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">friam-request@redfish.com</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">You can reach the person managing the list at<br></div><div dir="ltr"> <a href="mailto:friam-owner@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">friam-owner@redfish.com</a><br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br></div><div dir="ltr">than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."<br></div>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: Was: Abduction; Is Now: Dionysian and Apollonian Lives<br> (u?l? ?)<br> 2. Re: Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard) (Steven A Smith)<br> 3. Re: Abduction (Nick Thompson)<br> 4. Re: Abduction (u?l? ?)<br> 5. Re: Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard) (Marcus Daniels)<br> 6. Re: Was: Abduction; Is Now: Dionysian and Apollonian Lives<br> (<a href="mailto:lrudolph@meganet.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lrudolph@meganet.net</a>)<br> 7. Re: Was: Abduction; Is Now: Dionysian and Apollonian Lives<br> (Nick Thompson)<br> 8. Re: Was: Abduction; Is Now: Dionysian and Apollonian Lives<br> (u?l? ?)<br> 9. Learning curves (was, Abduction) (<a href="mailto:lrudolph@meganet.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lrudolph@meganet.net</a>)<br> 10. Re: Learning curves (was, Abduction) (Marcus Daniels)<br> 11. Re: Abduction (Prof David West)<br><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg29841" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">Since one of my dead horses is artificial discretization, I've always wondered what it's like to work in many-valued logics. So, proof by contradiction would change from [not-true => false] to [not-0 => {1,2,..,n}], assuming a discretized set of values {0..n}. But is there a continuous "many valued" logic, where any proposition can be evaluated to take on some sub-region of a continuous set? So, proof by contradiction would become something like [not∈{-∞,0} => ∈{0+ε,∞}]?<br><br>On 1/2/19 11:23 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:<br>> p.s. Dropping the law of the excluded middle required giving up proof by<br>> contradiction.<br><br>-- <br>☣ uǝlƃ<br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg56969" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675"><div id="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080">
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<p>It is to this point that I prefer to think in terms of
"neurodiverse" rather than "mentally ill". Your definitions here
respond more to my idea of "sociopathy". I don't think of
sociopaths as being mentally ill, just not good members of the
society they find themselves in. Most *L*ibertarians I know seem
to be on the verge of sociopathy as a matter of honor. <br>
</p>
<p>There has been a move afoot to recognize the selection value of
neurodiversity in a group and to de-stigmatize or de-pathologize
what was previously considered dis-ease or dys-function.</p>
<p><a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html</a><br>
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<div class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-cite-prefix">On 1/2/19 12:33 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:<br>
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<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nick writes:</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">“A mentally ill
individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other
individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?”
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Sure, in that case the “mentally ill
individual” may have failed to connect their actions with the
consequences. Or maybe they wanted lodging in a psychiatric
facility on the family dime -- probably a bad call if your
name was Rosemary Kennedy.</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Friam
<a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Nick
Thompson <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><nickthompson@earthlink.net></a><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group' <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact
checking is hard)</span></p>
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<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
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<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Marcus, </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Forgive me if I
am entering this party late, but what exactly means “mental
illness”
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><i>I would
expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in
this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west
where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not
had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it. </i></b></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">So, is a young
person who hears voices, but who integrates those voices
into a well-organized and effective life mentally ill? Is
the homeless person who prefers to sleep on a subway grate
than go into a shelter mentally ill? I had a colleague once
who famously checked himself into a mental hospital making a
vague claim to hearing voices and then, once on the ward,
behaved absolutely as he would have otherwise. His only
aberrant behavior was that he constantly took notes.
Explaining that he was doing a study of the ward. When,
after a few weeks, he got bored of it and tried to check
himself out, he could not get out! He had to use his
“fail-safe” (the chairman of his department, if I remember)
to extract himself. Was he mentally ill? </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Is trump
mentally Ill? WAS he mentally ill before he became
president? Or was he promoted to his level of mental
illness. (<a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Peter-Principle-Things-Always-Wrong/dp/0285631764" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">CF, Peter Principle.)</a> (In a
political hierarchy a politician will rise to his level of
insanity.) (cf,
<i><a href="https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=All%20the%20kings%20men&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=mozilla-20" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">All the Kings Men</a></i>, a
fabulous novel, by the way). Not clear to me how a
libertarian of any stripe can allow the concept of mental
illness into a conversation. A mentally ill individual is
one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are
willing to cooperate to put him away?
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nick </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nicholas S.
Thompson</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Emeritus
Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Clark
University</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1;">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></p>
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<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam
[<a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee
Group <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact
checking is hard)</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Robert writes:</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">“Estimates vary by source, but fraction of
opioid deaths that are suicide is around 20-30%”</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">What I’d really like to know is how the
fraction of opioid deaths occur with individuals that have no
historical sign of mental illness at all, and would be
described by their friends and colleagues as effective and
engaged prior to their initial prescription. I would expect
that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this
country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it
is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate
health insurance to use to diagnose it. I strongly suspect
a structural cause of all this is the idea that free will
exists, combined with the inevitable evolution of the economy
toward more automation. Millions of people, maybe hundreds
of millions of people, have what amounts to a mistaken view of
the world. Similar arguments apply to the ongoing outbursts
of gun homicide (instead of suicide).
</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
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<pre class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-quote-pre">============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a>
archives back to 2003: <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a>
FRIAM-COMIC <a class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg23821" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675"><div id="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080"><div><div class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080WordSection1"><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Well, right, Steve. Is it fair to say that, to some extent, you have "cultivated" dreaming? </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">I guess that's all I mean to say. I decided not to dream much. </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">By the way, may I unfairly take you to task about one thing you said. And I quote: </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><i>rational/linear modes of thinking/being,</i></b></p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">There is nothing linear about rational thought. It is intensely hierarchical. It is its hieararchical nature, not it’s linearity, that leads it astray. Because one is working in one compartment, one misses things that would be obvious to people working in a less compartmentalized way. This reminds me of the mis use of the “learning curve” metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve. </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Your friendly metaphor police at your service, </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Nick </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Nicholas S. Thompson</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Clark University</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith<br>Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 12:11 PM<br>To: friam@redfish.com<br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">I have spent my life cultivating hypnopompic and hypnogogic states... this, which supports lucid dreaming, is my best way to access mystical states... mindfulness meditation, as I practice it, can lapse into these states if I allow it.</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">I was put off by the drug-culture of my peers in the 60's/70's for many reasons, one might have included a strong steeping in rational/linear modes of thinking/being, in spite of an early discovery of and indulgence in lucid dreaming.</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">I know many who identify as "evening" or "morning" people, but there is evidence that before the industrial revolution brought ubiquitous artificial light (city gas or kerosene lamps, then electric lights, now flickering TV/computer/phone screens), "segmented sleep" was the standard. It was common (almost ubiquitous?) for people to go to sleep soon after dark and then wake in the middle of the night for an hour or two of wakefulness, referred to as "Dorvielle" in French Speaking cultures or "wake-sleep", a somewhat hypnotic state (perhaps a slow slide from hypnopompia to hypnogagia and back again?).</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Hot climates/cultures have an alternative "segmented sleep" wherein the heat of the day is reserved for a "siesta" with both evening and early morning reserved for taking care of business when it is cooler. I think of a siesta as being somewhat lighter and more lucid-dream conducive than "night sleep".</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">- Steve</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">On 1/2/19 10:07 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> There's also this thing one can do called `sleeping in', which tends </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> to increase the probability of dream memory and/or lucid dreaming, at </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> least for me. A built-in neuroplasticity mechanism complete with </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> psychedelic phenomena and a safety mechanism of motor system </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> deactivation. (</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> On 1/2/19, 10:03 AM, "Friam on behalf of Nick Thompson" <<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com%20on%20behalf%20of%20nickthompson@earthlink.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">friam-bounces@redfish.com on behalf of nickthompson@earthlink.net</span></a>> wrote:</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. Is that a fair statement of a difference between us?</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> ============================================================</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> at St. John's College to unsubscribe </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText"> </p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">============================================================</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></p><p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoPlainText">FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:windowtext;text-decoration:none;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</p></div></div></div></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg33725" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">I claim the answer to your 2 questions is yes. As Marcus (with the usage classes) and Steve (with behavioral "drugs") point out, the reason people engage in such things is to make their lives *better* (according to some definition of "better"). To think anything else is to risk the madness of morons like Nancy Reagan or those who think alcoholics suffer from a moral failing, rather than a physiochemical one.<br><br>You want your insulin pump to make your life better than it would be without it. Simple. Rational.<br><br>As Dave pointed out, though, we have some very promising therapeutic agents that we've ignored because we've been hoodwinked by the moral proselytizing of anti-science nutbags who think like Scientologists -- Clear Body, Clear Mind and all that.<br><br>On 1/2/19 11:33 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br>> So is THAT the spirit in which people take psilocybin? Is that the spirit in which people welcome the legalization of LSD? I fear I may have wronged them horribly. To be so far from a moderately happy life to want to derange one's entire experience for even only a few hours, seems like a terrible thing to me. I regard sanity as an achievement, not a state of affairs into which life naturally folds. I would no more take LSD than crumple up a piece of paper before I put it in the printer. <br><br>-- <br>☣ uǝlƃ<br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg54284" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675"><div id="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080">
<div>
<div class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080WordSection1">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Depression, bipolar disorder, and OCD are examples of the kind of mental illnesses I had in mind. They make life hard for those that have it. More downsides than upsides. As for sociopathy, for most people, just being too damned irritating
will eventually create a cost for them too. Others become the president, at least for a while.
</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Friam <friam-bounces@redfish.com> on behalf of Steven A Smith <sasmyth@swcp.com><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:47 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>"friam@redfish.com" <friam@redfish.com><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p>It is to this point that I prefer to think in terms of "neurodiverse" rather than "mentally ill". Your definitions here respond more to my idea of "sociopathy". I don't think of sociopaths as being mentally ill, just not good members of the society
they find themselves in. Most *L*ibertarians I know seem to be on the verge of sociopathy as a matter of honor.
</p>
<p>There has been a move afoot to recognize the selection value of neurodiversity in a group and to de-stigmatize or de-pathologize what was previously considered dis-ease or dys-function.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/23/books/review/neurotribes-by-steve-silberman.html</a></p>
<div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">On 1/2/19 12:33 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nick writes:</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">“A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?”
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Sure, in that case the “mentally ill individual” may have failed to connect their actions with the consequences. Or maybe they wanted lodging in a psychiatric facility on the family dime -- probably a bad call if your name was Rosemary
Kennedy.</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black;">Friam
<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><friam-bounces@redfish.com></a> on behalf of Nick Thompson
<a href="mailto:nickthompson@earthlink.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><nickthompson@earthlink.net></a><br>
<b>Reply-To: </b>The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 12:15 PM<br>
<b>To: </b>'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Marcus, </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Forgive me if I am entering this party late, but what exactly means “mental illness”
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in;"><b><i>I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance
to use to diagnose it. </i></b></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">So, is a young person who hears voices, but who integrates those voices into a well-organized and effective life mentally ill? Is the homeless person who prefers to sleep on a subway grate than go into a shelter
mentally ill? I had a colleague once who famously checked himself into a mental hospital making a vague claim to hearing voices and then, once on the ward, behaved absolutely as he would have otherwise. His only aberrant behavior was that he constantly took
notes. Explaining that he was doing a study of the ward. When, after a few weeks, he got bored of it and tried to check himself out, he could not get out! He had to use his “fail-safe” (the chairman of his department, if I remember) to extract himself.
Was he mentally ill? </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Is trump mentally Ill? WAS he mentally ill before he became president? Or was he promoted to his level of mental illness. (<a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Peter-Principle-Things-Always-Wrong/dp/0285631764" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">CF,
Peter Principle.)</a> (In a political hierarchy a politician will rise to his level of insanity.) (cf,
<i><a href="https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=All%20the%20kings%20men&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=mozilla-20" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">All the Kings Men</a></i>, a fabulous novel, by the way). Not clear to me how a libertarian of any stripe
can allow the concept of mental illness into a conversation. A mentally ill individual is one whose behavior is so annoying that other individuals are willing to cooperate to put him away?
</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nick </span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;">Clark University</span></p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563C1;">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></p>
</div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D;"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;">
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Friam [<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marcus Daniels<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 02, 2019 11:44 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">
<friam@redfish.com></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [FRIAM] Statistical poser (aka fact checking is hard)</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Robert writes:</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">“Estimates vary by source, but fraction of opioid deaths that are suicide is around 20-30%”</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">What I’d really like to know is how the fraction of opioid deaths occur with individuals that have no historical sign of mental illness at all, and would be described by their friends and colleagues as effective and engaged prior to their
initial prescription. I would expect that mental illness is massively underdiagnosed in this country, and especially in the blue collar mid-west where it is considered a taboo topic and people have not had adequate health insurance to use to diagnose it.
I strongly suspect a structural cause of all this is the idea that free will exists, combined with the inevitable evolution of the economy toward more automation. Millions of people, maybe hundreds of millions of people, have what amounts to a mistaken
view of the world. Similar arguments apply to the ongoing outbursts of gun homicide (instead of suicide).
</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal">Marcus</p>
<p class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>============================================================</pre>
<pre>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</pre>
<pre>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</pre>
<pre>to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a></pre>
<pre>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a></pre>
<pre>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg04118" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">I'm not sure what you're buying with your move to "continuous" rather than<br>(merely) "infinite-valued". I mean, though your discretized values {0..n}<br>are integers, they are (in my small experience of many-valued logics,<br>which does not include any actually *working* with them as logics) merely<br>nominal labels--the order, and the arithmetic for that matter, are<br>irrelevant semantically: the flavors 1, 2, 3 of not-true aren't such that<br>2 is more not-true than 1 but less not-true than 3, and certainly aren't<br>such that 2 is exactly half-way from 1 to 3 in not-trueness.<br><br>And, from another point of view, contrary to most people's "intuition" (as<br>formed by what turns out to be bad pedagogy, not anything in the<br>foundation of either physics or mathematics), "continuity" doesn't require<br>infinitude. Way back in the early 1960 a couple of mathematicians<br>independently (Bob Stong was one of them, I forget the other) noticed that<br>all the algebraic topology that can be done with (finite) "simplicial<br>complexes" (e.g., polyhedra) in Euclidean space (so, in particular, all<br>the algebraic topology of compact differentiable manifolds) can be<br>faithfully rephrased in terms of *finite* topological spaces (I mean,<br>literally finite: only finitely many points, where in particular a<br>one-element set does not have to be closed), if you don't insist that the<br>topology be Hausdorff (but do impose one very weak "separation property"<br>which I'm currently blanking on). Much more recently, a pair of<br>Argentinians, J. Barmak & E. Minian, have published a series of papers<br>(all available at the arXiv) extending and clarifying that. Logics with<br>*that* kind of a continuum of values has, I think, already be done (the<br>finite topological spaces in question can be reinterpreted as finite<br>posets / finite lattices / etc., and at least "lattice-valued logics" has<br>a familiar sound to me; but, again, I'm blanking on any details).<br><br><br>> Since one of my dead horses is artificial discretization, I've always<br>> wondered what it's like to work in many-valued logics. So, proof by<br>> contradiction would change from [not-true => false] to [not-0 =><br>> {1,2,..,n}], assuming a discretized set of values {0..n}. But is there a<br>> continuous "many valued" logic, where any proposition can be evaluated to<br>> take on some sub-region of a continuous set? So, proof by contradiction<br>> would become something like [not∈{-∞,0} => ∈{0+ε,∞}]?<br><br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg97826" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">Lee, I think you got your threads seriously tangled. <br><br>N<br><br>Nicholas S. Thompson<br>Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology<br>Clark University<br><a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</a><br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:<a href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">friam-bounces@redfish.com</a>] On Behalf Of <a href="mailto:lrudolph@meganet.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lrudolph@meganet.net</a><br>Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 2:14 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">friam@redfish.com</a><br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Was: Abduction; Is Now: Dionysian and Apollonian Lives<br><br>I'm not sure what you're buying with your move to "continuous" rather than<br>(merely) "infinite-valued". I mean, though your discretized values {0..n} are integers, they are (in my small experience of many-valued logics, which does not include any actually *working* with them as logics) merely nominal labels--the order, and the arithmetic for that matter, are irrelevant semantically: the flavors 1, 2, 3 of not-true aren't such that<br>2 is more not-true than 1 but less not-true than 3, and certainly aren't such that 2 is exactly half-way from 1 to 3 in not-trueness.<br><br>And, from another point of view, contrary to most people's "intuition" (as formed by what turns out to be bad pedagogy, not anything in the foundation of either physics or mathematics), "continuity" doesn't require infinitude. Way back in the early 1960 a couple of mathematicians independently (Bob Stong was one of them, I forget the other) noticed that all the algebraic topology that can be done with (finite) "simplicial complexes" (e.g., polyhedra) in Euclidean space (so, in particular, all the algebraic topology of compact differentiable manifolds) can be faithfully rephrased in terms of *finite* topological spaces (I mean, literally finite: only finitely many points, where in particular a one-element set does not have to be closed), if you don't insist that the topology be Hausdorff (but do impose one very weak "separation property"<br>which I'm currently blanking on). Much more recently, a pair of Argentinians, J. Barmak & E. Minian, have published a series of papers (all available at the arXiv) extending and clarifying that. Logics with<br>*that* kind of a continuum of values has, I think, already be done (the finite topological spaces in question can be reinterpreted as finite posets / finite lattices / etc., and at least "lattice-valued logics" has a familiar sound to me; but, again, I'm blanking on any details).<br><br><br>> Since one of my dead horses is artificial discretization, I've always <br>> wondered what it's like to work in many-valued logics. So, proof by <br>> contradiction would change from [not-true => false] to [not-0 => <br>> {1,2,..,n}], assuming a discretized set of values {0..n}. But is <br>> there a continuous "many valued" logic, where any proposition can be <br>> evaluated to take on some sub-region of a continuous set? So, proof <br>> by contradiction would become something like [not∈{-∞,0} => ∈{0+ε,∞}]?<br><br><br><br>============================================================<br>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br>archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br>FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ </a>by Dr. Strangelove<br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg31011" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">Blame Frank! 8^) Or blame yourself for artificially discretizing humans into Dionysian vs. Apollonian.<br><br>Thanks, Lee. I doubt I have the ability to parse the Barmak and Minian work. But I appreciate your skepticism. My intention was to vaguely hand-wafe at something about closed and open topologies and, perhaps, imply something about analytical balls of radius epsilon as the truth that's preserved by deduction. I still think there's something that could be said about the rational numbers as possible truth values, as opposed to a dense infinity. But like my worry that all directed cyclic graphs can be reduced to DAGs, you've made me just as worried about the necessity of dense sets.<br><br>On 1/2/19 1:18 PM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br>> Lee, I think you got your threads seriously tangled. <br><br>-- <br>☣ uǝlƃ<br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg28872" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">Nick wrote, in relevant part,<br>> This reminds me of the misuse of the "learning curve"<br>> metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be<br>> feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve.<br><br>Behold, complete with ASCII art (so be ready to view this in a monospaced<br>font, or forever hold your peace), an ancient USENET post of mine to<br>alt.usage.english, from 1995 (!):<br><br>===begin===<br>Robert L Rosenberg (<a href="mailto:rros...@osf1.gmu.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rros...@osf1.gmu.edu</a>):<br>>: A learning curve should be the graph of a non-decreasing function (time<br>>: on the horizontal axis, knowledge of the topic on the vertical axis). A<br>>: fast learner would have a generally steeper learning curve than a slow<br>>: learner. At least that's the way I've always pictured it.<br><br><a href="mailto:kci...@cpcug.digex.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kci...@cpcug.digex.net</a> (Keith Ivey) writes:<br>>I agree that this makes sense, but it doesn't seem to correspond with<br>>the way the phrase is used. In my experience, something that is hard<br>>to learn is said to have a steep learning curve.<br><br>Rosenberg's explanation not only makes sense, it accords with the<br>original use by rat-runners and other operant conditioners (cf.,<br>e.g., _Psychology_ by James D. Laird and Nicholas S. Thompson, p. 164:<br>"The ... steeper the curve, the faster the animal is learning").<br>More precisely, *during an interval of time where the curve is<br>steep, the animal is learning quickly*.<br><br>The present use is muddled; as Ivey points out, "something<br>that is hard to learn is said to have a steep learning curve."<br>Here's how I unmuddle it (but I don't know what, if anything, is<br>going on in the heads of most people who use the phrase): by the<br>Mean Value Theorem, or common intuition, if a (smooth) nondecreasing<br>function f(t) with f(0)=0 and f(1)=1 is "steep" (has large derivative)<br>somewhere, then it MUST be "flat" (have small derivative) somewhere<br>else. Typical learning curves (I gather from the illustrations in<br>Laird and Thompson) look either like Figure A or like Figure B:<br><br> x o<br> x<br> x o<br> x<br> x o<br><br> x o<br> o<br> o<br> x o<br><br> FIGURE A FIGURE B<br><br>In the first case, you learn almost everything in a short period of<br>time near the beginning of the training, then reach a plateau and learn<br>the rest very slowly. In the second case, you learn very slowly for a long<br>time, then take off near the end of the training.<br><br>So the question is reduced to another one: which of Figures A and B is<br>a "steep" curve to the average speaker?<br><br>Lee Rudolph<br><br>===end===<br><br><br><br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg54389" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675">Figure B is how R&D works, and Figure A describes a good student. <br><br>On 1/2/19, 2:32 PM, "<a href="mailto:lrudolph@meganet.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lrudolph@meganet.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:lrudolph@meganet.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">lrudolph@meganet.net</a>> wrote:<br><br> Nick wrote, in relevant part,<br> > This reminds me of the misuse of the "learning curve"<br> > metaphor. People speak of a steep learning curve as something to be<br> > feared. In fact, people who learn quickly have a steep learning curve.<br> <br> Behold, complete with ASCII art (so be ready to view this in a monospaced<br> font, or forever hold your peace), an ancient USENET post of mine to<br> alt.usage.english, from 1995 (!):<br> <br> ===begin===<br> Robert L Rosenberg (<a href="mailto:rros...@osf1.gmu.edu" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">rros...@osf1.gmu.edu</a>):<br> >: A learning curve should be the graph of a non-decreasing function (time<br> >: on the horizontal axis, knowledge of the topic on the vertical axis). A<br> >: fast learner would have a generally steeper learning curve than a slow<br> >: learner. At least that's the way I've always pictured it.<br> <br> <a href="mailto:kci...@cpcug.digex.net" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">kci...@cpcug.digex.net</a> (Keith Ivey) writes:<br> >I agree that this makes sense, but it doesn't seem to correspond with<br> >the way the phrase is used. In my experience, something that is hard<br> >to learn is said to have a steep learning curve.<br> <br> Rosenberg's explanation not only makes sense, it accords with the<br> original use by rat-runners and other operant conditioners (cf.,<br> e.g., _Psychology_ by James D. Laird and Nicholas S. Thompson, p. 164:<br> "The ... steeper the curve, the faster the animal is learning").<br> More precisely, *during an interval of time where the curve is<br> steep, the animal is learning quickly*.<br> <br> The present use is muddled; as Ivey points out, "something<br> that is hard to learn is said to have a steep learning curve."<br> Here's how I unmuddle it (but I don't know what, if anything, is<br> going on in the heads of most people who use the phrase): by the<br> Mean Value Theorem, or common intuition, if a (smooth) nondecreasing<br> function f(t) with f(0)=0 and f(1)=1 is "steep" (has large derivative)<br> somewhere, then it MUST be "flat" (have small derivative) somewhere<br> else. Typical learning curves (I gather from the illustrations in<br> Laird and Thompson) look either like Figure A or like Figure B:<br> <br> x o<br> x<br> x o<br> x<br> x o<br> <br> x o<br> o<br> o<br> x o<br> <br> FIGURE A FIGURE B<br> <br> In the first case, you learn almost everything in a short period of<br> time near the beginning of the training, then reach a plateau and learn<br> the rest very slowly. In the second case, you learn very slowly for a long<br> time, then take off near the end of the training.<br> <br> So the question is reduced to another one: which of Figures A and B is<br> a "steep" curve to the average speaker?<br> <br> Lee Rudolph<br> <br> ===end===<br> <br> <br> <br> ============================================================<br> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br> to unsubscribe <a href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br> archives back to 2003: <a href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br> FRIAM-COMIC <a href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ " rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ </a>by Dr. Strangelove<br> <br><br></div><div id="ydpfc3a88ceymsg25616" class="ydpfc3a88ceymsg0662953675"><div id="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080">
<div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;">Why hast thou forsaken me?</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Nick</span></span><br></p></div>
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<div style="font-family:Arial;">Well, did you pay your tithes last month????<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">It is really kind of silly to think that one can either characterize oneself, or be characterized by others, as Dionysian or Apollonian. the concept has become so mucked up since Nietzsche used the notions to define tragedy (a folly of his youth). The absurd overlay / infusion of Islamo-Judeo-Christo morality delivered a death blow to the whole idea.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">In Greek Philosophy ones behavior (and thoughts if you want to allow such) were grounded in complex blend of the the two traits; and consequently everyone was "ambiguous" with regard to them. The intolerance of ambiguity among the People of the Book and most of Western culture, keeps trying to push for a two valued logic which is not useful.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">If you want to use the terms as metaphors, Apollonian vs. Dionysian could correspond to 1) cortex vs. amygdala; or 2) right-brain vs. left-brain. Everyone knows that any behavior is simultaneously grounded in both elements, but to an observer, including an internal one, any given behavior might seem to be predominantly influenced by one or the other.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">My claim to "Apollonian" is grounded in a long ago commitment to following the precepts of Jinyana (Jnana) Yoga. first in Vedic literature, the Buddhism and Taoism — Ch'an Buddhism --> Zen. I strive to make all of my behavior deliberate and intentional within a meta-rational and meta-logical context, utilizing the cortex / left-brain as a filter. If you ever read Korzibski, there echos in my head of his "cortico-thalamic pause."<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">Feel free to reduce the preceding mumbo-jumbo to: its all behavior, and each behavior is grounded in the complexity of the whole organism.<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;">davew<br></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial;"><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type="cite"><div><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Dave,</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;">Thou deniest me in my moment of need!</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;"> </span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;">Thou castest me to the wolves (eg Marcus).</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;"> </span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:English Text;">Why hast thou forsaken me?</span></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Nick</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Clark University</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>From: Friam [mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Prof David West<br>Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 10:49 AM<br>To: friam@redfish.com<br>Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction</span></span></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Sorry Nick,</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">I am as hardcore Apollonian as is possible.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">And if you organize your life around pleasure, even if moderate and consistent, it is you that are the Dionysian.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">davew</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">On Wed, Jan 2, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Dave,</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> I realize that you (and perhaps others of our colleagues here) are</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Dionysians, whereas I, always, have been a stalwart Apollonian. The</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> difference, for me, is the risk one is willing to take for a peak</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> experience of some sort. Some people organize their lives around</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> their vacations and holidays. I hate holidays and vacations and</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> organize my life around a steady diet of moderate pleasure. If you see what I mean.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> For instance, I have never dreamed about what mushrooms might do for me. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Is that a fair statement of a difference between us? </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Nick</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Nicholas S. Thompson</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> -----Original Message-----</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> From: Friam [<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com</span></a>] On Behalf Of Prof David</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> West</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2019 7:05 AM</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> To: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="mailto:friam@redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">friam@redfish.com</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Abduction</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> MDMA risks = dehydration, in part because it is usually taken in the</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> context of frenetic physical activity like at a rave. Disinhibition</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> can pose a secondary risk because partner selection is less</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> discerning. Like too many drugs, long term effects / gender different</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> effects / age different effects, are unknown because unstudied.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> davew</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> On Tue, Jan 1, 2019, at 7:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > The premise of the series is that a drug + counseling is used to</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > mitigate PTSD symptoms, but in fact it ends-up deleting recent memories</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > and was intended to make soldiers able to continue service. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > One might argue that accumulation of emotional trauma is part of one's</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > personality, and relieving it destroys part of a person. One might</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > also argue that to have just one personality, developing on a</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > contiguous timeline, is a sort of arbitrary confinement -- like</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > living in a freezer that just keeps getting colder.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > I don't know what the actual risks are of MDMA. Alcohol's side effects,</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > in terms of impairment of judgement, are already pretty dangerous. </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > Marcus</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > On 1/1/19, 7:23 PM, "Friam on behalf of glen"</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com%20on%20behalf%20of%20gepropella@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">friam-bounces@redfish.com on behalf of gepropella@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > I don't understand what you mean? Are you asking why</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > psychedelics are not prescribable? Or saying that their therapeutic</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > effect is negligible?</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > FWIW, I haven't seen Homecoming.</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > On January 1, 2019 11:28:28 AM PST, Marcus Daniels</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > <<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="mailto:marcus@snoutfarm.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">marcus@snoutfarm.com</span></a>> wrote:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > >Watching Homecoming I found myself thinking, "Yes, so what's</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > the big</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > >deal?"</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > >On 12/31/18, 1:40 PM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ <span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:UI sans-serif;">☣</span>"</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > ><<a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="mailto:friam-bounces@redfish.com%20on%20behalf%20of%20gepropella@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">friam-bounces@redfish.com on behalf of gepropella@gmail.com</span></a>></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > wrote:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > We're getting closer EVERY DAY!</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="https://psi-2020.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">https://psi-2020.org/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > Oh, and if anyone needs a charity to toss some 2018 money at:</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="https://maps.org/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">https://maps.org/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > --</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > glen</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > ============================================================</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > to unsubscribe <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > ============================================================</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> > FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ============================================================</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> at St. John's College to unsubscribe</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> ============================================================</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> at St. John's College to unsubscribe</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</span></a></span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">> FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" style="color:windowtext;">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</span></a> by Dr. Strangelove</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;"> </span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">============================================================</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv</span></span><br></p><p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080font" style="font-family:sans-serif;"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080size" style="font-size:11pt;">Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><span class="ydpfc3a88ceyiv5824513080colour" 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<div>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv<br></div>
<div>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College<br></div>
<div>to unsubscribe <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com</a><br></div>
<div>archives back to 2003: <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/</a><br></div>
<div>FRIAM-COMIC <a style="text-decoration:underline;color:rgb(5, 99, 193);" href="http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/</a> by Dr. Strangelove<br></div>
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